A day after he bought electric scooter, man killed in battery explosion | Hacker News Reader

A day after he bought electric scooter, man killed in battery explosion

indianexpress.com

73 pointsakbarnama62 comments

There are many videos of escooter battery fires, but the following is probably one of the most dramatic ones (not related to OP): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBUGEFErXxA

It's crazy how quickly shit goes south.

Cars as well

Would a blanket help? Covering it with blankets will be my first thought.

Lithium-ion battery fires are self-oxidising, so I don’t think a blanket would have much effect.

Self-oxygenating metal fires usually require you to dump the device into a big container of water.

What’s the best way to put out the fire in that video? I assume a regular fire extinguisher isn’t equipped to resolve an electrical fire

In the US (I'd assume Europe has a similar thing with different specifics), most fire extinguishers are certified for some or all of three categories of fire: normal, flammable liquid (think grease fire), or electrical. Most extinguishers actually work fine on electrical fires, but it is important to check as a few contain a conductive suppressant (like water) that can cause an electrocution.

Grease fires are actually class K. Small ones, like a frying pan, can be extinguished with a class B extinguisher, but if there is enough grease/oil, or it gets too hot, you need something more powerful.

Actually I believe lithium ion fires are considered flammable liquid and not electric fires. It's a chemical reaction in the battery which isn't making electricity at the time but rather heat. Even then it's not a normal liquid fire since the oxidizer is in the battery rather than in the air.

An electric scooter is somewhere around 12v-60v. Is it really plausible that electricity will arch from a battery on fire towards the extinguisher?

No. The chemical reaction is just really intense and next to impossible to stop.

With an intense lithium-ion battery fire the only thing you can do is calm it down a bit (with a ton of water or sand) and make sure it doesn't spread.

What about the hydroflouric acid if it happens indoors? I wouldn't want to inhale that stuff! I actually thought about what to do when it happens here. Only thing I could think of was to try to put it into a metal bucket which I don't have, only empty paint cans, or baking tray from the oven, and get it out onto the balcony ASAP, if possible at all.

In the US, electrical fires are class C fires. Many fire extinguishers available are ABC extinguishers, which means they can deal with class A (material), B (liquid), and C (electrical) fires. Extinguishers for class D (metal) and class K (high temperature grease/cooking oil) are not common in households.

Isn't this a chemical fire not an electrical one since it's a chemical reaction in the battery that is causing the fire? The fact that normally that chemical reaction makes electricity rather than violent heat seems moot. The battery also has the oxidizer in it so an extinguisher that tries to block oxygen won't work at all.

https://resources.impactfireservices.com/how-do-you-put-out-... You may be right.

However, it doesn't really matter. Buy an ABC extinguisher for your kitchen and for your garage, and just use it if needed. You don't need to overthink this.

Yes and no, the exothermic reaction ignites the electrolyte solvent, usually a blend of organic carbonates (depending on the type of battery). So it's almost a liquid fire, a chemical fire and an electrical fire all in one. It doesnt have an oxidizer, but the chemicals do contain oxygen. But ultimately there are 3 ingredients needed for a fire, fuel, oxygen and heat. An extinguisher targets two of these by cooling it down and limiting oxygen.

The exothermic reaction will also slow down when cooled which will further help contain the problem

Whoever FireRescue1.com is says that a class B fire extinguisher is good for a cooking oil fire, but that first (presumably more usefully) you should cover it and smother it in salt.

https://www.firerescue1.com/community/articles/how-to-put-ou...

Very small cooking oil fires, yes. :)

Drop it in the swimming pool.

https://www.firehouse.com/operations-training/news/21236083/...

Pull the thing out of the house and let it burn outside. It is a relatively small battery so outside it won't do much harm, this in contrast to what it seems to do in that room. Tossing it in the pool is also possible but given the small size that'd be a waste of pool water which would need to be replaced. Just let it burn outside. Use a rake, broom or whatever other long thing at hand to pull the thing outside.

You dont even try putting it out. Your best bet is some kind of cover (metal bucket) and throwing it outside as fast as possible. Or you know, dont keep Chinese scooters indoors.

Apple has a policy of keeping a container filled with sand close by when working with batteries.

This. You don't put it out, the fire is caused by a chemical reaction in a closed case. You can't stop it, only insulate it from damaging everything around it by dumping it in sand.

The fire is just a byproduct of the extremely fast exothermic reaction taking place in the battery.

Yes, there really needs to be some form of certification for lithium-ion (and other...) batteries used in personal transportation devices.

The recipe is really simple: insufficient structural integrity of the entire product leading to flexing the battery pack, leading to a short-circuit in one or more cells, leading to a violent-and-very-smokey fire.

The previous scare was with "hoverboards", where kids burnt down their parents' houses after bumping into something. And now it's apparently e-scooters, which are a bit more difficult to dismiss as "just a fad toy"...

In any case: safety markings are not just rent-seeking behavior. In some cases, certification (and subsequent enforcement of the presence of authentic markings) are literal life-savers.

There has been certification for energy dense batteries for decades. Clearly nobody looks at these certifications and just buys whatever is cheap.

Seems like we should mandate the slapping of big “not certified” stickers on any battery of sufficient danger that’s not certified. And maybe subsidize and streamline testing to make sure it’s not too stifling for small startup entrants to the industry. Maybe wishful thinking, looking at our history with that kind of thing.

> safety markings are not just rent-seeking behavior

This makes me wonder if society should subsidize safety and compliance testing to reduce the incentive to skip it.

Or we can require companies to do compliance testing under external supervision if they want to sell these products to people.

You can and you’ll thereby have created an environment with significant incentives to cheat, avoid testing, fake certification labels, or similar. If you’re able to exhaustively inspect every corner of every supply chain, that could work; I suspect that’s hard to make happen.

VW is the exception to the role in the auto industry. I don't see why it couldn't work. It's just a question of how much we care.

Is VW an exception? Ford Pinto fuel tanks, GM ignition switches, Toyota accelerator pedal assemblies, and I’ve made at least three trips (might have been four) to dealers for Takata airbag problems.

Even with these problems, people accept the dangers of cars every day. I'm sure most accidents are caused not by cars but by people, and the issues you point out are notable for their rarity. That's why they make big news.

Similar to how flying feels less safe than it is because a plane crash makes the news.

My point is, it can work, and the auto industry is a trivial example.

Primarily we need investment in a battery chemistry that doesn't have 'self-sustaining exothermic runaway' as a normal failure mode when overcharged, or charged too fast, or discharged too fast, or discharged to too low a voltage in a pack without a proper BMS, or charged after being discharged to too low a voltage, or physically damaged, or due to random manufacturing defects. It's not just hoverboards and escooters, it's those exploding laptop batteries years ago, exploding samsung phones, and now in nearly all EV's. Recently I've been seeing more LiCo packs powering wheelchairs.

The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device. Boat builders prefer LiFePO4 for safety reasons. Lithium iron phosphate batteries don't have an exothermic failure mode other than standard flammability of the materials. LiFePO4 or similar should be a standard for any large-capacity battery powered device a person holds, wears, or occupies.

My main concern now is what's going to happen as these batteries age. Ebikes and escooters in general are going to earn a reputation that should be earned by a specific battery chemistry. EV's will too as more of them age into the backyard mechanic resale price range. People are going to get hurt, and leaders who don't know better will hamstring lithium batteries in general.

> The RC community are more often selecting to use LiFePO4 batteries in their controllers, regardless of what's in the remote device.

The majority of transmitters uses lipo/li-ion. You already have a lipo in your phone, why not in the TX? Not many people sleep while their radios are charging on their nightstand..

Boats are the only type of rc craft where using LiFePO4s is feasible, because they are less weight sensitive. Try selling switching to LiFePO4 to quadcopter pilots, for example..

There was a veritable epidemic of these in Singapore, with many fires and some deaths. Almost all were attributable to no-brand Chinese manufacturers that skimp on everything they can, including forging certifications. The government since instituted a UL2272 certification requirement and offered free disposal of non-compliant devices.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/over-1700-pmds-dispos...

“ Boom Corbett 14 ”

That scooter brand has an unfortunate name.

We collectively have nearly a hundred years of learning how to deal with the hazards of gasoline, we will need to learn the hazards of batteries the same painful way.

The Boom CarBattery 14

I don't know what the real level of danger is but most of us probably have dozens of rechargeable batteries in our homes including in old electronics we don't use any longer. I've found a couple of old pieces of Apple gear with very swollen batteries.

The number of batteries will only increase as a lot of outdoor gear (lawn mowers and the like) are increasingly practical to have cordless electric versions of--to say nothing of cars. (Of course, this decreases the need to store gasoline at home.)

I’d rather have gas. Bumping an old can or machine full of it will never cause it to self-immolate.

The maintenance of gas-powered lawn equipment is sort of a pain though. I replaced my weed whacker a couple years ago with a cordless electric one and it's a lot easier. Quieter and less polluting as well.

At a comparable "age of development" (i.e. early 20th century), gasoline cars started using leaded fuel. I'd say there's quite a bunch of battery fires left before it's getting into "similar" damage impact.

Tech needs time to mature, everything's just moving so much faster these days that it's easy to mistakenly assume the maturation would happen equally quick.

It can if it’s bumped and spills onto fabric, like old rags.

Oil soaked rags spontaneously combusting is like cat batteries giving off hydrogen when charging - few know about it but if it happens you remember it.

It's well known how to make safe batteries. But there is a corner cutting corporation born every minute.

Car models have unsafe design flaws too.

Right, every few years there's a recall for a potential fire issue from a major car manufacturer. GM had a recall in 2015 after they made a million cars across various brands which could leak oil onto a hot exhaust manifold, starting a fire while parked.

As battery tech improves, by definition we are going to reach ever increasing energy densities, ideally on the order of magnitde of hydrocarbons'.

Moreover, people will want for devices to charge fast. This implies a lot of waste heath, which negatively impacts energy efficiency and requires smart electronics to keep temperatures under control (I suspect this second aspect is what failed in this case).

However, once we get to high densities, we'll have to consider safety seriously: who would want to sleep close to all that energy stored in a small space, with zero activation energy to protect from a runaway?

There has been sooooo many fires in singapore caused by these e-scooters. They should be banned or heavily regulated because it’s a bit ridiculous how many fires there are.

At least require them to watch a sped up 5min video of a lithium battery bursting on fire. With attempts at extinguishing the flames. Make the user realize it will not be a normal fire. A lot of people wouldnt imagine a small solid device to act that way.

These kinds of vehicles are completely banned on the London public transport network (TFL) because of the danger of battery fires and explosions.

The UK needs to hurry up and decriminalise e-scooters, so they can start to regulate them and actually improve safety.

The problem is people buying cheap devices that skirt or fake existing battery quality regulations. There would surely be a higher number of people making that kind of purchase if they were to be allowed on UK public roads.

I can’t see how anyone would be made safer by decriminalising scooters - either charging them at home or out on the roads.

Fires from electric vehicles getting more and more often. Few days ago Paris decided to withdraw 149 electric buses [1] after two have catch fire.

[1]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paris-withdraws-149-ele...

Depending on whether it was the "Boom Corbett 14" or "Boom Corbett 14-EX", it had either a 2.3KWh or 4.6KWh battery. That's a lot of hazardous material in your living room either way. Probably 25-50lbs (11-22 kilos) of it?

Given the topic, if I want to get a reasonably reliable and safe e-scooter, which would you recommend?

If you want one backed by a reputable company's warranty and consumer safety, Segway sells a good one. Other reputable brands include Apollo, Unagi and Razor.

I've heard people say recently that electric vehicles catch fire at the same rate as gas vehicles. Proof that they're basically safe enough.

Except that has vehicles catch fire after an accident, or after 200k miles when someone let's an oil leak go on for way too long.

Electric vehicles are catching fire while basically new, and while being used in standard ways like being parked and charging in your garage. It's not common at all for newish gas cars to catch fire while parked.

Newer electric vehicles are moving to LFP batteries which are very resistant to fire after shorting or puncture

Ather, one of the first e-scooter makers in India, had claimed that imported Li-ion batteries aren't suited for Indian weather, so they designed their own. Many parts of India easily hit 40C and more in the summer. Given the spate of e-scooter fires here recently, they may have been right.

(I'm not associated with Ather in any way.)

An opportunity to improve fire stations across the world to handle battery fires. Also pretty sad that beta adopters of new tech like this get hit with shit like this. I wonder if batteries are going to get demonized like nuclear energy.

This situation is tragic. Why isn’t there a better setup to keep bikes outside at night? Even having a petrol bike in the house isn’t ideal so close to where people are sleeping.

Honesty it's truly amazing that we haven't had a huge surge in house fires, since every single electronic device is holding this kind of energy.

who is the manufacturer of the bike?

a name, a guarantee: "charging his Boom Corbett 14 scooter"

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