Am I the only person who can’t get a job? | Hacker News Reader

Am I the only person who can’t get a job?

37 points_vpbe73 comments

~5 years Python, STEM non-cs degree that all recruiters tell me is “amazing.” For this reason (?) get interviews, 0/ many. People seem to like me at my current shitty job, and management likes that I am a good little slave. But people don’t ever take me seriously - always peg me as “long hair, don’t care.”

This is a cry for help, feel free to give advice, a job interview or just commiserate if you’re in the same boat.

*EDIT* didn’t want to doxx myself but [link redacted]

View on HN

It is kind of striking that in tech I see this from both sides as I know people who are desperate to fill positions and others who are desperate for jobs and somehow they keep sliding by each other.

One thing that stands out is the extreme asymmetry of the situation. Applicants need to have a brief and highly relevant cover letter or equivalent, a resume that emphasizes experiences directly relevant to a particular position, and some portfolio showing off their skills on github or such like. Anything goes wrong or isn't completely right at any stage means no thank you and maybe apply again. On the other hand employers post listings that have long and rambling laundry lists of nice to haves, listings get posted on job search sites and generate only that listing is no longer open responses, automated resume filters take out many applicants, and interviews are intimidating and loaded with questions about unrelated technical details.

Because many programmers have trouble with complex social situations and social problems this can end up being an extremely difficult situation. Alternatives like contracting and launching startups end up being easier and more accessible than actually getting a job even for those who would prefer employment.

Potential improvements may be more on the side of employers than candidates. Options like scanning more resumes personally instead of with machines, retaining contacts who were imperfect fits at one time, being flexible with qualifications, and offering options for evaluation periods or initial contracts might help. Expecting programmers to hone their social skills and appearance to get a job seems honestly unrealistic given the domain.

> Applicants need to have a brief and highly relevant cover letter or equivalent,

May not help as each potion is different by a wide margin. Coming up with a relevant cover letter IMO is completely useless and a huge waste of time.

> Coming up with a relevant cover letter IMO is completely useless and a huge waste of time.

Data point of one, but as a (ex)-hiring manager I'd disagree. While you should be tailoring both your cover letter and resume to the job at hand, the cover letter tends to be what I remember best, and is your chance to tell me why your the right fit for this job, as opposed to the resume which pretty much leaves it for me to figure out.

Cover letter gets the hiring manager to read your resume. Your resume gets you an interview. Interview gets you the job. Simple process.

> ~5 years Python, STEM non-cs degree that all recruiters tell me is “amazing.”

Over the years I have had several coworkers with STEM non-cs PhDs. It does carry over to fields like data science, but it doesn't carry over too much to the average software shop where the main struggles are things like tech debt, rotting technologies, API bugs, etc... you won't necessarily do better than someone with a solid high school education and companies know it. My advice is that you start showcasing your skills ASAP with some Github repos, it helped me get out of a similar situation.

I’m sorry you are struggling to get a job :( been there, it sucks!!

There are two things I would tell you:

1. Skip the recruiters! In tech I’ve come across some amazing and helpful recruiters, but that is a tiny minority. I used to hear the word “networking” and the sole concept was frightening to me, but at the end of the day all it means is making connections in whatever way you find comfortable for you. My current job came through a conversation in the golang slack. And I’ve had a few offers from just being part of meetups, in person and virtual. It is a completely different story when your first contact with a company is with a manager or through a referral. In such cases the recruiter job is not really to “judge” you but to facilitate you getting to know the company and the company getting to know you!

2. Show, don’t tell. Instead of telling people what you know, show them instead! A few blog posts that I’m not too proud about have had a pretty big impact on job conversations, and as a bonus it lets you know the level that a hiring manager might have in you. Make a few shiny things, at the end of the day, the people hiring are human and are attracted to shiny things thus, check out one or two cools projects in dribbble.com (with 3 b’s) and implement them. If you can have them hosted somewhere so people can click on them even better!

One last thing, which I want to say as sensibly as I can. Confidence is something hard to fake and realizing that very few companies, if any, simply can’t operate without somebody with your skills, your perspective starts changing from “somebody give me a job” to “are you (X company) good enough for me”. Is not about being a conceited jerk, but companies compete for people that seem confident, processes are expedited or even skipped if the individual is comparing companies/offers, etc. All I’m saying is, know that your skills are very valuable and in high demand and let that knowledge and conviction be conveyed in your conversation. Again, is not about being a jerk, but neither a push-over.

Best of luck on the search. My email is in my profile if you wanna continue the convo :)

Wow - this is a plan! Thank you for putting it all right there and thanks for the link.

for sure!

You only mention Python as your skillset. Most recruiters seem to keyword match on a longish list of terms. So whilst your STEM background might be impressive, unless the job requires domain experience in your field and is Python heavy, it might be difficult to tick enough boxes to get an interview.

You might also want to refrain from describing your current role and employer in negative terms.

Stop being a "good little slave", sharpen your image, attitude and ask for a raise and a promotion to get a fancier job title. That might in turn make you happier and make you more desirable in the eyes of potential employers.

I think you’re overestimating my current job title. Peep the LinkedIn

Your initial description was very vague. Saying that you have 5 years of Python might be technically correct but in reality your last developer job ended over 4 years ago and now you're doing completely unrelated stuff. When people look at your resume, they'll see a salesperson at Home Depot who hasn't programmed in years. You'll need a good story about why you moved away from development - that's the part that will really stand out as a red flag.

You're essentially trying to break into the industry (again) which can be quite difficult. You might be carrying some experience but you also have some baggage to account for.

Honestly, you're shooting yourself in the foot using phrases like "current shitty job" and "good little slave" publicly and attached to your name. It's unprofessional.

That's a big red flag, IMHO, justified or not, and no matter what your qualifications are, I'd move you down the hiring stack without a second thought (because I have lots of other applicants to choose from).

How many times are you applying? I applied to 500 different companies on Indeed, dedicating ~4 hours a day to filling applications, customizing resumes to job descriptions, and conducting phone and video interviews. Was hired in about 3 weeks. Maybe use that as a metric.

I respect the grind and tbh I have basically given up actively applying, I just respond to recruiters now. At my peak ~ hour a day. The thing is, if every company has something obnoxious like 3 + interviews, and I average about 1.5 before flaming out, then I don’t really want to apply to 500 jobs and forget who I’m even interviewing with. Also, now that I have a FT non-wfh, I don’t really have the time to.

Have you considered 1) taking a vacation and doing the grind while on it, 2) buying yourself a pen and a notebook and writing down what you tend to forget?

> I just respond to recruiters now.

Oh, you'll never get a job that way. Lol. Recruiters on linkedin who shoot out mass DMs are the bottom of the barrel.

>I just respond to recruiters now.

If you do this, automate it. I have one email address just for recruiters. I had a script run and look though my gmail inbox looking for keywords, ask the salary/rate up front form recruiters. Email me if you want the code. It is in Java.

Thanks - this would convert what is now a huge waste of time into a learning experience.

At least you already have a job. Recruiters have a despicable convention of rejecting applicants for just being unemployed, no matter what skill sets and experiences they have — and then they have the nerve to claim that there would be a shortage of developers.

Another pattern I've noticed is that they take a look at your background in your resume and get the idea that you'd rather do something else than what you applied for. You'd have to express your current path in your cover letter if it isn't clear from your resume.

I've successfully interviewed when I was younger and had long hair. Just keep it tidy (washed, brushed and in a ponytail). Your dress and manners are also important: don't reinforce any wrong preconceptions they may have,

I am in a similar situation:

How long have you been applying? Python is nebulous.

Does this mean data science: pandas, matplotlib, numpy, etc.

Or machine learning: tensorflow, scikit-learn, etc.

Others: openCV, sympy, etc.

Knowing this I think would help others provide better feedback.

When I receive a rejection email (which is nice), I ask what I should work on. Last 4 companies said they did an in hire instead, and they would like to retain my information. I would like to get to the interview process.

A lot of other positions I applied to close on the last Friday of the month and then reopen on the first Monday of the next month. So it appears (as an outside observer) as though there no human in that loop.

@jstx asked "What companies and positions are you applying to?" I need to reflect and reconsider where I have been submitting my CV.

What exactly is your current job - title, what kind of company and team, what do you work on every day?

What companies and positions are you applying to?

In psychology there is a phenomenon called "the missing missing reasons." Usually this refers to parents whose children no longer have a relationship with them. The parents claim the child never gave any reason. Except the children always gave them plenty of reasons. The parents just weren't willing to accept those reasons.

I suspect you are in the same position here. I think you know exactly why you aren't getting interviews but you just aren't ready to accept it yet.

Also, you posted your Linkedin. We know where you work. And you just publicly called them "shitty." If I were your boss I'd fire you. And if I were a potential boss I'd never hire someone who did that.

You’re not wrong.

>Also, you posted your Linkedin. We know where you work. And you just publicly called them "shitty." If I were your boss I'd fire you. And if I were a potential boss I'd never hire someone who did that.

I think it's a bit harsh on the OP. This is an ex-work network and we are all allowed to vent. Having said that, however I feel the OPs frustration is probably unwarranted, the market is as seller-friendly as I have ever seen ( and I have been doing this for more than 2 decades).

I don't have a simple answer for you OP, other than to keep pushing and networking. It's just a matter of time...if you are determined enough.

Just good, solid, relationship advice that applies to both personal and professional relationships is to not get involved with people who badmouth their current or former employer/partner. You are just setting yourself up to be the next person they are publicly badmouthing.

If I want to vent about an employer, I don't name them on a globally available platform. It's unprofessional. If they did that to you, you could sue them.

This is a reason why, "Why are you leaving your current job" is a common interview question. You get minus points for badmouthing your current job.

Have a look on https://jobboardsearch.com for sure is going to help you a lot in order to find a job in tech!

I'm a web dev, so I can only speak from my own experience:

You say 5 years python, but based on your linkedin you mean hobbiest experience, so you should expect that it's going to be harder. I was a hobbiest for 4 years before I got hired. There's no link to your GitHub, so it's impossible to see anything you've written. Hopefully you're including links to personal projects in your resumes.

Your best bet is going to be cashstrapped startups. They will likely pay less and demand more than an enterprise role, but don't worry about the size of your first paycheck, because you can level way up in a year or two.

However, small orgs like to hire generalists, full stack devs that can do it all. I was hired for frontend, but I had to write code in Django Rest Framework and Flask too. With a backend focus, I'd recommend building the rest of your toolset out and learning some frontend if you haven't. You'll likely have to touch frontend, so youre only helping your future self.

Networking is big, and I spent a lot of time first going to meetups and later speaking at them. Even if you don't get a job this way, you will get more comfortable talking to other devs and increase your confidence. Feel free to shoot an actual resume or GitHub over to ian at schwartz.world and I will happily give you more thorough feedback

In my experience so far on the job market, employers do not look at anything in your portfolio, github or otherwise. I've got github portfolio and a huge active site and app portfolio with excellent analytics. I can see who visits my online properties and out of over fifty jobs applied for, not a single hit from an employer on any of my portfolio even when I'd be getting to the 2nd and 3rd and 4th interview with five companies so far this year.

Definitely true in many cases, but with no job experience it _can_ tip the scales. The job that first hired me didn't really scrutinize my projects either (and nobody cares after the first job), but I still think it's the right thing to do.

Going through the entire process of getting a portfolio online is a huge signifier. If you build the site, manage it with git, get it up on GitHub and somehow actually deploy it somewhere, that means you've at least interacted with a lot of the basic tools developers use. It's a thing that you've done, when there may not be many others, and doing it more than once means it's less things we'll have to teach you when onboarding. With a nice classless frontend framework like Sakura, it takes like 30 minutes tops to put together a small HTML page and you can drag-and-drop deploy with Netlify, so honestly the bar is quite low.

But I actually brought up GitHub from the standpoint of: I have no idea what kind of job he's actually trying to get and how his experience might relate to that. All we know is 5 years, can't get hired.

I waited until the initial rush of comments were complete before throwing my 5c in. The first thing that sticks out is you being a good little slave, and your shitty job. I've had shitty jobs before - and I automated the shit and spent the free time skilling up into another job... which unfortunately was 12-hour days getting yelled at for much more money. It's relative is what I'm saying, grass greener and all that.

You have the opportunity to improve yourself which many jobs don't allow. You get pigeon-holed and told to stay in your lane, getting slapped down because you write a replacement app in a month when your boss's boss has been working on it for 2 years.... Use the opportunity you currently have. I'm struggling to start a business and wish I had the safety of a day job.

Also, the adage "dress for success" or "dress for your next job" is true. If you dress like a slob, that's how you're perceived. If you have the Linux-hair, people will assume you're a basement-dwelling loser, even if you live on the top floor of your building in NYC and are friends will millionaires.

Finally, people will only buy if you're selling. What are you selling? I've looked at your github and I'm unimpressed. Perceptions matter. People will stalk your name and ID on the internet to achieve confirmation bias or be impressed. In a job interview, I fixed a bug that had plagued a company for months because I knew the software in-and-out. What are you selling? I was hired that afternoon because of that knowledge and my willingness to take off my suit jacket and write 30LOC.

Right now you're looking to be bought. You're not changing you, you're changing the image which people buy. There's a difference. Recognise that. Stop taking it personally. Get it done. Profit. Best wishes

I am a data science tech lead with hiring experience. I can offer honest feedback of your profile, in private. Can you provide contact info?

Thank you - I was trying to DM someone else but couldn’t find he way to do that.

The hell w it, [link redacted]

I see [link redacted].

It seems that software developers can't just be programmers anymore. Now you need to be the all singing all dancing expert of everything. Familiar with 3 cloud platforms, Linux system administration, DBA, Jenkins CI Pipelines and Terraform. Don't forget Docker and Kubernetes too!

A quick note: Monster, LinkedIn and the job aggregation sites tend to have very poor job listings. A lot of them are just contractor companies listing terrible compensation roles that they want to fill with an H1B or justify a hardship loan based on "Not enough interest." If you go to the company websites directly you can find better roles. You can search for "Careers at ${EMPLOYER}" and get much better results applying directly.

yeah not very useful to give advice, if you present that little information. - what is your job - what are you looking for - what salary do you want - where are you located - what are your requirements for a job - how proficient are you really in python and what are you doing with it, do you know all the things around some programming language? agile frameworks, git workflows, ci/cd, cloud foo etc...

not to be mean, but if you work like you ask, i get a feeling why

You should become familiar with Git and at least one of the hosted options github/gitlab. You should become familiar with docker and docker compose, potentially kubernetes as well.

Also wouldn't hurt to know at least something about a major cloud provider like AWS/GCP/Azure.

At a minimum I would want git and docker experience, but really (since my company is cloud based), I would pass on anybody without AWS experience unless their resume was THAT impressive.

[link redacted]

I assumed since it wasn't in the skill list on your profile (I'm on mobile so apologies if it is there and I can't see it) that you didn't know anything about it. So I guess my next comment is add to the skill list all the ubiquitous technologies you know but thought weren't necessary to enumerate.

But definitely good to provide a GitHub link in your resume, I don't usually make a decision based on reading the code, but showing it is a positive in my mind.

One possibility is that the code is just really bad. Anyway, most of what I’ve written is either private or not my property.

Might be worth adding more Python stuff to your Github then. But for sure add more stuff to your skill list, to tick more boxes for the automated searches that recruiters do.

And I'm not sure what type of work you're interested in, but Madison seems to have at least somewhat of a startup scene, so I'm sure there are plenty of startups that would hire you, even if you aren't hired in as a developer/engineer, you could likely move into that role, and restart your technical career trajectory.

> People seem to like me at my current shitty job, and management likes that I am a good little slave.

Trust no one, they will say that they like you and all that, when it serves their purpose. They don't hate you either.

Expect to give atleast 50 interviews before you get hired for a position. Keep track of interviews on paper/document ( a spread sheet is best, IMO). Add new buzz words, lie if needed, ( provided you back it even with something trivial). The whole resume thing screening mainly works on keywords.

The market is indeed shitty for some people, generally the kind who cannot brag about themself and the everyday unglamorous work they do every day. When you do get hired remember one sobering thing: they most likely hired you because they were desperate, not because you were the ideal candidate.( there is no such thing as an ideal candidate for a job, as much as employers would like to believe).

It's a game of numbers really. And if you have long hair cut it. ( the advice form one of the commenters here about taking advise from your female friends is worth it. Ask your mom/sis if you don't have any. Many nerds are clueless on this front, it's an innate skill, so cannot be developed beyond a point).

Finally my sympathies with you, most likely you are not flawed in a major way, it's the employers, it is indeed a shitty virtue-signalling collective delusional world out there.

Also please remove your linkedin profile link form your post, it's not a wise idea.

Unfortunately I can’t

We'll take care of it for you.

Python by itself isn't really that useful for entry level positions, unless you also work with some other tools and/or frameworks. I have known Python for 5 years, that didn't land me a job, then learned Django over the part of a summer, blogged about a single project, and within 2 months I had an entry job position.

I’ve made tons of things in Django. My first experience w Python was making something in django (for actual users). I don’t feel like clogging up the internet w some post about how I made something in django, but if that’s what it takes then maybe? It just seems as much like garbage-self promotion as posting a pic on Instagram or something. Anyway, with me I don’t think experience is the problem. As silly as it seems, I think I just come off as dumb due to my voice, face, etc.

> I think I just come off as dumb due to my voice, face, etc.

What do you perceive to be the problem with your voice and face?

Since I’ve already doxxed myself I’ll just leave it vague

I don't know you personally so I cannot pass a judgement, but my observation is that often the less smart people will interpret smarter people's ignorance and humility as stupidity. A _lot_ of interviewers (anybody actually) are like this.

Quote: The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. – Bertrand Russell

I used to feel like "playing the game" or "playing politics" was for poor performers to cover up their weaknesses. Thankfully over time I swallowed my pride and decided if I was going to play, I was going to play to win at any cost. Check out the free book Playing to Win by David Sirlin [1].

Once I adopted this mindset, it was easier to do the "lame" things that were clearly just signalling mechanisms. Better clothes and grooming, a public blog, writing books, leadership in meetups, lots of open source work, conference speaking, reading all the right books, saying the right things, etc. Over time, instead of just doing these for "winning" I grew into someone an order of magnitude better than before I started. Sort of a catch 22.

At some point it's not just signalling anymore. I'm extremely glad I swallowed my pride when I did, and really wish I'd done it sooner.

[1] https://www.sirlin.net/ptw

Interesting book. Any other books do you recommend?

For tech career stuff, here's my suggestions both for books I liked and how to pick your own books

http://deliberate-software.com/page/books/ http://deliberate-software.com/next-book/

you sound like someone I wouldn't want around :)

I self promote with content only. I guess my face is on LinkedIn and my personal blog but it don't do videos or talks. In the weekend I just pick a topic in terms of software to blog about. Spend a few hours on that and then pay someone on fiverr to promote it. It an easy way to ensure companies and clients keep finding me on Google. It also always gives me an edge on the job market. Try it, what's there to lose?

well... I also struggled finding a job. do keep applying, do keep looking - just give less fucks about it. e.g. my current employer still hasn't seen me on a webcam. and don't be shy to cut it short and ghost em (hell no I'm not gonna code in a browser, keep that bs personality test to yourself).

CTO with hiring experience here, if you provide me with contact details I can also give a honest feedback on what might be wrong with your CV/interview process/experience.

Thank you, I’m adding my LinkedIn to original post since I can’t figure out how to DM

The information you have given is not good enough for to provide any useful advice. However, there are usually phases like this for everyone.

Here are more relevant links - I can’t seem to update OP

[links redacted]

I'm gonna get downvoted...but, do you know how to do Leetcode?

Whether they practice in leetcode does not matter if they can not get past resume stage.

no.

> always peg me as “long hair, don’t care.”

Get a hair cut? Sharpen your dress code? Ask one of your female friends to go shopping with you, get a makeover.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com