Comment by freeflight | Hacker News Reader

Comment by freeflight | Hacker News Reader

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> The number of people who'd be easily willing to just murder a bunch of people for an invented reason is much greater than elsewhere.

> Americans can get 'nationalist' but they are absolutely not like that, beyond a smaller group, Americans are by default positive and gregarious.

Americans killed millions, and displaced tens of millions [0] in a "crusade on terror" the consequences of which lasting to this day, for a whole bunch of invented reasons [1] [2] [3].

And that was after the largest protest movement, in human history, literally begged them not to do it [4].

Which is quite a stark contrast to the Russia Ukraine situation; That has been a situation for by now nearly a decade, with Russia being very vocal about its own interests and where it draws the line in term of NATO expansion.

All of that was ignored, for years, as Russia's interests were not deemed important, or even worth considering from a Western, and particularly US perspective, that only considered one thing; Steady NATO expansion, steady encroachment on Russia [5].

After literally decades of this [6] the bear is now in the corner, and it's very predictably leashing out, yet most of the West still keeps acting like the bear is irrational for acting like that. Particularly as the West rather wants to peddle the narrative of the expansionist bear who is soon to roll into Berlin, to justify all that NATO expansion..

[0] https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/20...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda_li...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein%27s_alleged_shr...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_prot...

[5] https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1997-jul-07-me-10464...

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/13/international/bush-pulls-...

I am sorry but this is total bs, nobody cornered Russia.

That is a flippant and simplistic view of the situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lQ-E-7b-Vw

The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia.

Ukraine had a lower performing, cheaper economy than Russia, free trade status with the EU means that it could have setup factories for rich EU companies.

Huge untapped oil and gas deposits were discovered in Ukraine as well, putting Russia's energy dominance over Europe into doubt. With all of their financial eggs in the oil basket and all of that corruption to feed ... We now see the result.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union...

"The EU put stipulations on Ukraine, that they could only have free trade status with the EU or Russia but not both. This pulled UA westward at the detriment of Russia."

? They said the same thing to the UK, and they say the same thing to every country. Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones.

> They said the same thing to the UK

They didn't because the UK didn't even have the same problem due to the UK already having been a EU member for a long time, as such it was already tooled for EU market demands.

While the Ukrainian economy was very much tooled towards former Soviet markets like Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan, those made up 60% of Ukraine's exports in 2013 [0].

Obviously a lot of that fell apart after 2014, instead came IMF bailouts aka loans [1], which have been keeping the Ukrainian economy alive since then, now substituted with additional credits for the weapons some countries are supplying Ukraine.

> Do you understand what trade harmonization means ? You can't be part of multiple trade harmonization zones.

So you do understand the actual issue? Then why act like it ain't an issue and it's just "Russian propaganda like in the UK!"?

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-russia-ukraine-factbox...

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-27233152

1)

This is Russian propaganda - either from someone who doesn't understand the situation (i.e. 'Useful Idiocy' as Stalin himself coined the term) - or - arguing in bad faith.

It's ironically a very good example of the cynical, authoritarian, toxic 'bad faith' acting by the Russian government, and people.

Foreign Minster Lavarov - literally just yesterday, was lambasting Israel for 'supporting the Nazi regime in Ukraine'.

The word 'repulsive' isn't strong enough.

'NATO expansion' is - much like the public story of 'WMDs in Iraq' - a canard.

It's as stupid as the lie about 'denazification' which Putin is using to justify a genocide.

Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it.

Concerns about 'not listening to Russian concerns for 7 years' is another lie - as though Russia had a material position to begin with.

Russia created the problems in Ukraine, quite on purpose.

In 2004 they poisoned Ukrainian Yushchenko, later, the GRU/FIS/FSB were all over, controlling and corrupting their stooge Yanukovich - who publicly declared he was going to focus on Europe, but after consolidating power, he indicated that Ukraine was going to 'Go with Russia'.

A revolution ensued - and Putin invaded Crimea and invaded (yes, invaded) the Donbas where his forces 'not in uniform' were used to start a conflict between Ukrainians.

Even the leaders of the Ukrainian ultra nationalists were on Putin's payroll - he was cynically playing both sides.

If you want to understand Putin's genocidal motivations in Ukraine, read his own words [1]

You can read Michael McFaul's (former Ambassador to Russia) great articulation of the situation [2]

2)

Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian mass murderer who invaded Kuwait (Iran before that), gassed his own citizens.

Saddam would call out members of Congress, ask them to confess to their failures ... and then have them executed on the spot.

Saddam is responsible for situation he created for himself, American intentions and methods were overall in good faith, though obviously poorly applied.

The 'WMD story' was an exaggeration of reality for reasons of populism, but it was not even false - WMD's were a problem for this regime, as was his ongoing antagonism.

[1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

[2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears...

> Russia has no real threat from NATO - there is 0% chance of NATO aggression towards Russia, and they know it.

I actually think that this is wrong. And that is the key to understand Russia’s behavior.

Russia seems to have (legitimate I would say, given the past) fears that it will be attacked eventually like it happened in the past and needs to be - as a result of that - heavily defended.

I actually agree about the legitimate fears, but this doesn't justify invading anyone. And the situation in Ukraine was manufactured by Russia on purpose.

It's true that USA has done some terrible things in the past. And it's too bad the perpetrators never got punished. But it doesn't mean we should tolerate this behaviour elsewhere.

Just want to clarify that I am personally against invading any country. But Russia did indeed invade this country, so I am brainstorming as to what their equation may be.

Russia is after all a rational actor on the world stage, and they must have thought the benefits are stronger than the cons.

The problem with your line of thinking is that you are framing their 'rationality' as though they are a Western country.

It is 'rational' in Russian to invade a former colony, because they should be dominated by Russia. 75% of the elite are good with that, 50% of the population and the rest will be mostly indifferent in the end.

Russia obviously does not want NATO expansion but they are not afraid of it, and NATO 'on their borders' is not an existential concern.

Much like Putin set the 'red lines' for intervention and is destroying a nation saying 'others cannot be involved but we can' - his propaganda has you in the same 'mental bubble' - thinking about 'NATO' while he does the unthinkable.

Russia also has no interest in telling the truth - they lie, lie, lie. Their diplomacy is entire a function of leverage.

Your taking the intellectual posture of an abused person, listening to the excuses of 'why he had to abuse you' etc..

Again - if you want to understand, just read Putin's own words [1].

He does not view Ukraine as a 'place'. He views Ukraine as basically part of 'greater russia' and that 'Ukraine' is not real.

Also, read McFaul's thesis about NATO and Russia.

[1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

[2] https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/what-putin-fears...

To me reading this guy was immensely useful for understanding Russian way of thought: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1498377757536968711 - starting with demographic, https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1504585616834457619.

> And the situation in Ukraine was manufactured by Russia on purpose.

That makes no sense at all [0], it wasn't Russian politicians that went to Euromaidan to rile the people there up how more negotiations would be "Not enough" [1], that were pretty much Western, and particularly US politicians and "their people" in Ukraine, like Arseniy Yatsenyuk [2].

Who Victoria Nuland called "our man in Ukraine" when discussing how to grandfather in his new Ukrainian government at the UN [3]

Even Germany threw in their bid for new PM of Ukraine, with a German national [4], thus Klitschko didn't even qualify for that position without an Ukrainian citizenship.

I guess they could have done it like with Natalie Jaresko, an American banker who ended up becoming the new Ukrainian minister of finance, got her Ukrainian citizenship the same day she was sworn in as minister [5].

This whole situation also lead to the Russian military having massive supply issues, as East Ukraine used to be rather integral manufacturing hub for Russian military arms [6]. Why would Russia want to "manufacture" losing all of that?

> It's true that USA has done some terrible things in the past. And it's too bad the perpetrators never got punished. But it doesn't mean we should tolerate this behaviour elsewhere.

The US still is doing these things, US troops still illegally occupy territories in places like Cuba and Syria. US drones and Special forces still kill people in at least half a dozen countries [7], with the help of countries that allegedly condone wars of aggression [8], Gitmo is still open and nobody knows how many more like it secretly exist.

In that context I find it fascinating how US war crimes are always declared like this thing from a far flung past that simply doesn't matter anymore, to then turn around and demand how the whole world should punish Russia for war crimes like its the next Nazi Germany.

Which I totally could get behind, if this was the universal reaction to such acts of aggression, but it absolutely is not. That's only the reaction when established "rogue nations" aka the alleged "bad guys" engage in such aggression, thus it can be exploited to support US foreign policy narratives.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahn...

[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20140302111543/http://openukrain...

[3] https://youtu.be/WV9J6sxCs5k

[4] https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_66915060/ukra...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Jaresko#Citizenship

[6] https://web.archive.org/web/20150329000809/http://www.soufan...

[7] https://theintercept.com/2017/01/30/obama-killed-a-16-year-o...

[8] https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/08/germany-could-have-deli...

See, you just demonstrated it yourself: you are arguing that Russia isn’t guilty, because Ukraine did something that make Russia angry. The crucial part is not what you are arguing about, it’s your assumption that Russia has any rights to countries outside its borders.

US war crimes are a thing, sure. But Russia just demonstrated a whole another level, as proven by genocide in Bucha, Mariupol and many others, as well as mass kidnappings and relocations to Siberia. US invaded countries, while Russia is literal Nazis.

As for why Russia was manufacturing the conflict: it’s obvious, it’s an attempt to grab land. They succeeded with Crimea.

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