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Comment by otagekki | Hacker News Reader

I live in Paris. My take-home salary before taxes as a software engineer is slightly less than that, it's considered "high" salary as I pay 10% income tax on it.

I'm seriously looking to moving to the U.S. by the end of the year to found a company, and while $15/h is becoming a trend, I don't really think I'll accept to come back to France after 2 years even at double the rate I am being paid now. Not being picky, but software engineer salaries here are just ridiculous (even more so outside Paris) even compared to neighboring countries like the U.K. or Germany

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It's not high for an engineer in France. I'm in the 20% bracket (alone, no kid to push me down a level) and i live on the coast (between Bayonne and La Rochelle basically, but i intend to move to portugal next winter, Bayonne is too cold), so i do not have a "I live in Paris bonus".

Your TJM (average daily rate for you english guys) should be at worst at 400€ if you just started (mine is 700 and i'm nota particulary qualified devops tbh). That's like 50€/hour before employer taxes (roughly 30%, so 15€). Your employer have other charges so i guess they can take 5€, it still leave you with 30€/hour which should be the standard for engineer i guess? That's roughly 4k/month-50k/year. A freelance can easely make his 80k in like ten month and take two month of vacation btw (for you not in France: we can't earn more than 80k/year in freelance, you have to start a LLC if you are above that). If you are a painter or i guess any freelance who do not only sell services, but also parts, it is 120k)

Not so long ago I learned that my contracting company's been billing my presence €800 day to my client (or €100-125/h), as I was looking for further explanations on a "you cost too much" remark that I've got. (for non-French people here, IT contracting companies are very secretive about their TJMs especially to their employees)

Thing is my take-home is nowhere close to that. And to negociate for a regular increase is almost a herculean task. I got one after long talks and it just got eaten up by inflation.

I think we all need a wake-up call here in France to stop being exploited. One thing for sure is that if I ever go back to do IT contracting in France it's to work as freelance or at least do a "portage salarial"

10% income tax only? Where so I sign?

Fun thing - I work in the Bay Area but because of my visa I don’t have to pay federal taxes and only pay state which is like 18%

This is probably wrong, btw. You are obligated to pay federal income taxes if you are here on a visa for over a certain number of days during the year... which sounds like might apply to you.[1]

Uncle Sam always gets paid.

[1] https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-resident-alien-t....

I did speak to an immigration lawyer to check! It's something like if I stay beyond a certain date I'll have to pay but because it's short term it's only state taxes.

Fair enough. Last I saw it was around 128 days total in a calendar year, which perhaps doesn't apply to you (the way you initially stated "you work in the bay area" seemed to imply you were here mostly full time).

These things are worth staying current with an attorney every once in a while. I don't imagine it would be very fun to find out the wrong way.

> I don’t have to pay federal taxes and only pay state which is like 18%

This sounds a bit off. California state income tax tops out at 13.3%, and the vast majority of folks owe less. Even if you include SDI/VPDI, that's only an additional 1.1% in 2022.

The most common tax exemption for foreigners is an exemption from FICA taxes (Social Security + Medicare) [1], which commonly applies to certain folks with F/J/M/Q visas. But generally, they still owe both federal and state income taxes. In fact, as nonresident aliens, their effective federal income tax rate can be a bit higher due to not having the standard deduction and certain other tax benefits.

Another relatively common benefit is the various tax treaties [2]. This may provide some relief from federal income tax, depending on the country and the visa status, but not necessarily a total exemption.

[1] https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/fore...

[2] https://www.irs.gov/publications/p901

You don't need to fly across the Atlantic for that. If you make $50k~$55k gross in one of the 9 US states with no state income tax, your effective tax rate is less than 10%, considering the standard deduction, 10%, and 12% rates.

A cursory search suggests that France, like the US, has a progressive income tax system, so a highly paid worker in France would also have a high tax liability.

Sure, it's achievable if you want to live in Texas or a middle of nowhere area / state.

Washington has no state income tax; Seattle isn't exactly the middle of nowhere.

Good point. Seattle, as long as you don't mind rainy gloom.

I actually really love visiting the SEA area.

Whatever you do, don't get an umbrella. The weather is only gloomy if you don't feel the liquid sunshine flowing on your skin. I lived in a not-so-wet climate for a few years and it was miserable and the sky was incredibly antagonistic to my eyes and skin.

Taking a 90% less salary (than the US) to lower your tax rate to 10% seems ill-advised. Salaries in Europe are horrendous for developers, they get screwed.

By horrendous you mean we can actually afford owning a house sometimes, not living in a trailer, and do not risk going bankrupt when a big medical bill comes up.

Oh and get most of the typical middle and some upper class luxuries, instead of get a yacht or get nothing.

> afford owning a house sometimes

Good one. Maybe somewhere in rural Saxony, but not close to a larger city where I work.

The big medical bill is a lie concocted by those with a political agenda.

Nobody ever pays the $100,000+ sticker prices of medical bills. Never. Doesn't happen. Firstly, if you have no insurance (very rare), you can negotiate very steep discounts with hospital and medical providers, as much as 90%+ off.

Secondly, tech companies give out either free or highly subsidized health plans, of which none would require you to pay $100,000 out of pocket.

Thirdly, out-of-pocket health expenses in the UK for example recently matched expenses in the US, so acting like Europe is a utopian health paradise seems exaggerated at best. Especially with 2 year long waiting lists for essential procedures like hip replacements.

I'm not even in the US and I earn much less and pay more taxes. I'm a Data Scientist/Software Developer and I can barely afford to live in the city I work in.

Ill-advised indeed. I'm paid €46k before taxes and social security (ie. very average income) with at take home of €27k after taxes. Most of my (frugal) living expenses for the year can be paid are on my first €16k. Which leaves me with approximately €10k for savings and leisure. If I were in the U.S. (Chicago), with a $104k before taxes and living expenses at $35k, I'm still left with $34k or €32k. A 3X increase in saving. YMMV. I went to university for 5 years but fortunately have no exorbitant student loan to pay back. And even if I did with full tuition I'd still be better off

It is very low. The equivalent of $25 USD/hour for a 40 hour work week in the UK would set you back 24% in total taxation.

Go to Paris, I have 5 years of experience but not exactly outstanding and yet I get 1 or 2 offers every year without pushing too much.

10% income tax is on your take-home salary. From a different perspective my take-home salary after tax is less than half of what I cost my employer, i.e. if I'm paid €2,500 per month I actually cost my employer slightly more than €5,100 (and even that is ridiculous compared to what people pay in countries with similar income level)

10% figure doesn't include employer or employee social security contributions which make up most of the taxes. Total tax wedge (take-home vs total labour costs) in France is north of 46%.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/taxing-wages-20725124.htm

SWE in Île-de-France is typically worth in the area of €50k a year, more for senior roles. It sounds like you are being underpaid.

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