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Comment by gruez | Hacker News Reader

>Other examples of products that seem to exhibit a similar trend, where purported convenience leads to higher prices

>Cooking equipment: essentially indestructible Cast Iron skillets transition into teflon pans. The newer pans perform worse, and must be replaced on a shockingly regular basis. They also seem to be poisonous.

They have their uses. I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil). Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

>Nespresso machines, and other coffee pod brands, replace many styles of coffee brewing. Provide much worse coffee, at a higher price but are superficially convenient.

Why are they only superficially convenient? They seem pretty convenient to me.

>Televisions moving from being screens which accept input, to self contained 'smart' devices that require software updates and thus have a shortened useful lifespan.

I thought it was the other way around? ie. smart TVs are cheaper than dumb TVs because they're subsidized by ad revenue. Also, the claim itself doesn't really make any sense. Even if you stop getting software updates, that doesn't prevent you from using it as a dumb display.

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> Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

1. The manufacturing process results in those precursor chemicals entering urban water supplies where they are nearly impossible to filter out (only RO is effective and it's not even 100% effective), and once in the bloodstream of people are powerful endrocrine disruptors which circulate and are filtered slowly by the kidneys... and when peed out go right back into the water supply due to not being able to be removed during treatment. These "forever chemicals" are some of the most health damaging pollutants in the West.

2. Teflon is extremely hazardous when consumed and it flakes off of the pans over time (which is why they must be replaced often) or when incorrect utensils are used (common among unsophisticated users).

3. Teflon can overheat on a standard consumer stove using standard cooking techniques. You actually need different techniques to prevent overheating a Teflon pan.

4. Cast Iron is effectively non-stick after enough use, and you can absolutely fry an egg in it without sticking if you have a smooth-bottom pan (either a vintage cast iron, new vintage-style, or a new style that you've sanded down and seasoned yourself).

>1. The manufacturing process results in those precursor chemicals entering urban water supplies where they are nearly impossible to filter out (only RO is effective and it's not even 100% effective), and once in the bloodstream of people are powerful endrocrine disruptors which circulate and are filtered slowly by the kidneys... and when peed out go right back into the water supply due to not being able to be removed during treatment. These "forever chemicals" are some of the most health damaging pollutants in the West.

That's why I said it was "a little misleading" rather that outright false. "poisonous" sort of implies that the object itself is poisonous or is bad for you. I'm sure manufacturing a smartphone causes a bunch of environmental damage, but you wouldn't call it poisonous (outside of putting in in your mouth).

>2. Teflon is extremely hazardous when consumed and it flakes off of the pans over time (which is why they must be replaced often) or when incorrect utensils are used (common among unsophisticated users).

source? This is contradicted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene#Safety

>3. Teflon can overheat on a standard consumer stove using standard cooking techniques. You actually need different techniques to prevent overheating a Teflon pan.

Like I said in my initial comment, teflon has its uses. I'm not saying it's the best tool for every job. Given that, I highly doubt this applies if I'm just cooking my eggs.

>4. Cast Iron is effectively non-stick after enough use, and you can absolutely fry an egg in it without sticking if you have a smooth-bottom pan (either a vintage cast iron, new vintage-style, or a new style that you've sanded down and seasoned yourself).

Sounds like a lot of work to me. In other words, the teflon pan is actually more convenient.

> Sounds like a lot of work to me. In other words, the teflon pan is actually more convenient.

It’s actually zero work, despite the recent uptick in people who think you need to coddle a cast iron pan. Most of the tips people give for dealing with cast iron are pointless extra work or actively make it perform worse.

I wash mine with soap and water and it takes about a minute, or about as long as washing a Teflon pan. Frequently I don’t even bother with this, and just wipe it out with a paper towel.

There was no need to jump through hoops to specially season the thing. Just use it, and its non-stick properties increase over time. It’s zero maintenance and I’ve had the damn thing for over a decade now.

Cast iron does have a couple rules that are exceptions in the modern kitchen. You can’t leave them soaking in the sink or run them through the dishwasher without creating a bunch of maintenance work to remove the rust you just created but this is usually less work, just different. Instead of soaking in the sink I tend to just boil a cup of water in the pan and it loosens up anything stuck. You also shouldn’t cook high acid foods like a slow simmering pasta sauce in cast iron since it can have unwanted taste effects. But otherwise, anything you read about seasoning with flaxseed oil and building up layers is a waste of your time, just use it.

I can also sympathize with anyone who is of below average strength (children, injured or disabled, advanced age) not choosing cast iron, they are heavy compared to a Teflon pan.

It's not a waste of time. Sometimes the pan will get sticky. Coating it with oil and putting it in the oven at high temperature will make it as good as new.

It's just not as common as people think when they hear about it.

The pan getting sticky is with overwhelming probability because people have a weird belief that you shouldn’t wash with soap or use the scrubby side of the sponge. This causes a buildup of half-polymerized oils which are sticky and/or rough. The reason reseasoning “works” is simply because you’re finishing the polymerization process. But it’s completely unnecessary.

The real solution isn’t to reseason. It’s to just wash the damn thing. Soap, water, and whatever scrub brush does the job. Nothing you do short of steel wool is going to make a dent in the seasoning.

Not washing with soap is one of those widespread myths that actively makes your cast iron perform worse. I struggled with this problem constantly until I stopped babying my cast iron and I’ve never had a problem since.

What totally changed my perspective was trying to get the black stuff off an aluminum sheet pan. It’s a slightly different bond than the seasoning on a cast iron pan but functionally they’re both the same thing. Getting that off a sheet pan required meticulously scrubbing with steel wool and a lot of elbow grease. It clicked for me that if it’s that hard to get it off a sheet pan, it’s not coming off my cast iron because I used a little Dawn.

You should mention that you really have to wipe them out at the very least after washing or they WILL rust without a doubt. Also cooking pasta (tomato based) sauce in them for a while WILL remove your seasoning, no matter how you accrued it. Deliberate seasoning does help but it doesn't have to be an ordeal nor treated like your fine crystal, but some people like to baby their cast iron. Even the cheapest cast iron will season and work. My lodge pans are great. There is no need to buy $150 cast iron pans from artisanal makers unless you're just a collector of such things.

I do dry mine out over a burner while I’m doing other tasks in the kitchen but I’ve definitely let it soak overnight by accident on occasion and never really noticed rust. YMMV

> Sounds like a lot of work to me. In other words, the teflon pan is actually more convenient.

I'm probably being a little nitpicky/contrarian when I say this, but for my cooking style, teflon is actually more.

I cook with large amounts of fat (generally beef fat - tallow and/or suet) every meal, which on Teflon causes a nightmare of a mess to clean. With my cast iron pan, I just wipe off a bit of the excess and let the rest say in the pan, forming a non-stick coating. I've not cooked any eggs in a while, but I reckon (granted, possibly falsely, since I've not tested this) that I would fry one without any special precautions due the amount of grease I cook with in normal times.

So for some people, the cast iron cooking style is actually easier because there is less cleaning.

I have a couple of good quality stainless steel frying pans.

Sticking is often a matter of temperature control. Once you get used to it, there’s very little difference to a teflon pan.

I know that teflon would be slightly more convenient but the health tradeoff doesn’t seem worth it.

You may like blue carbon steel pans. I tried lodge cast iron and while I like them, I thought they were too much work - mostly the weight (female who doesn't shy away from lifting real weights at the gym, but cast iron is not user friendly in that way). The blue steel pans are lighter than cast iron (heaver than teflon), cleans easier, heat faster, the handle stays cooler longer, and still has all the positives of cast iron without the cheap teflon. The only work/inconvenience is most are not pre-seasoned, which I preferred after learning to season my first new pan. It can be a simple 1-2 hour process after buying or can be thought of as an art.

I personally dont like cooking, and I avoid anything requiring more than 3 items - my steel pans remove the annoying factors (equipment handling, maintenance & care) make me dread cooking a little less. Had the pans for 4-5 years now and they are an absolute joy to use

> Cast Iron is effectively non-stick after enough use, and you can absolutely fry an egg in it without sticking if you have a smooth-bottom pan (either a vintage cast iron, new vintage-style, or a new style that you've sanded down and seasoned yourself).

I replied to the GP, but I fry eggs in a bog-standard Lodge which is neither vintage nor sanded down. It still has a distinct ”pebbly” appearance to it, though perhaps less than when I first got it.

Works like a charm, and a shake of the pan is usually all that’s needed to release eggs.

Yeah, I get that for some people going the extra mile is worth it, but it's important to point out that you don't need to do anything extra to get a perfectly functional pan. My modern Lodge skillet is more non-stick than any non-stick pan I've ever owned, and I've never even formally seasoned it. I just cooked with a little oil for the first month or so.

> 2. Teflon is extremely hazardous when consumed and it flakes off of the pans over time (which is why they must be replaced often) or when incorrect utensils are used (common among unsophisticated users).

It's very common to use incorrect utensils (metal) because the correct ones (wood, plastic) are are harder to clean and don't last as long, and few people would choose to use such utensils if all else were equal.

I use non stick pans with non metal utensils and it’s worked great for me for years.

cast iron is still not a viable alternative for every day cooking due to leeching of the iron into food - some iron is good, but usually this occurs at extraordinary levels

Stainless steel, Aluminum, Copper, etc. There are many replacements for Teflon which don't leach (I guess aluminum leaches but not sure).

The whole "Teflon flakes are hazardous when consumed" thing is totally BS - it's the chemicals produced when it gets too hot that aerosolize which you breathe in during cooking that are so bad for you (and the other stuff you mentioned about it's production process)

https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/is-teflon-coating-safe#:~....

This is not to go against your other points, but stop spreading FUD please.

Teflon flaking off isn't hazardous--the whole point of Teflon is that the chemicals are polymerized into a very inert form. That's why food doesn't stick. They only become dangerous if they depolymerize--which is where the issue with overheating comes from. Heating an empty pan can reach depolymerizing temperature.

In fact, there's even a (mildly insane) proposal to intentionally add Teflon to food, because the extra mass makes you feel full even though the Teflon just passes right through you.

My wife and I got rid of our TV last year when we moved. It was a nice break, but we want at least one in the house, so we're currently shopping around for a nice 4K 70+ inch. I've come to realize the market is headed toward a TV without any ports. You'll plug it in and immediately prompted to link with wifi so you can log into your streaming services. Fuck that.

I'm hell-bent on getting something with zero smart function- just ports. TVs like that will become gold in the future, when smart tvs will have ad banners that you can't turn off. The cost of media has come full circle. My prediction is: 1. All TVs have smart functions and no input ports 2. TV manufactures will be cutting deals with advertisers to display banner ads. Maybe you'll be lucky enough to pay for ad free. 3. Aggregate streaming services will provide access to multiple services for a flat fee. Welcome back to cable! 4. Total cost of consuming TV media will be eat average income budgets away

A TV without smart software and a lot of ports is called a PC monitor.

A 70" 4k pc monitor sounds prohibitively expensive though.

Our of curiosity, do you know why that is? What makes TVs different from monitors? (Genuinely don’t know much about the space)

tl;dr; Monitors require high pixel density - you generally sit closer. Checkout this graph:

https://www.displayninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/best...

A 4k monitor of 32" and a 4k tv of 32" have same pixel density. But their price difference can be several fold. Pixel density is not the differentiator.

I guess that the consumer home TV panels aren't meant for extended hours of usage. Their overall lifespan would be a lot lesser than commercial display panels and monitors.

Hunch: burn in resistance could be a reason. TVs usually have something moving at all times, whereas a many folks have menu bars and applications that are more static and could burn at element in.

For a long time I found the single biggest difference between them to be:

Even the best TVs had atrocious latency compared to cheap monitors. I don’t really know why this is, but it likely has something to expensive transformations to the video signal to “improve” quality. I have very pricy 1080p Samsung TV from 2013. Even in “Game Mode” I has latency of over 100ms. This enough to be noticeable in just moving a mouse around, let alone gaming.

That has been mostly rectified nowadays. I have an LG C1 (42”) and use it for gaming and work. It has <1ms average latency and just enough pixel density for computer use. It does need a good desk though.

The biggest remaining differences would be:

- TVs tend to have a “smart interface”. This can generally be avoided if you are just switching between inputs. - TVs tend not to support DisplayPort input. - TVs tend require large desk stands and are not VESA compatible. You need a large desk to use one as a monitor. - Very few TVs with high quality panels are available in smaller more pixel dense sizes. I’m imagining this will become less of a problem with a move to 8k. - TVs tend to have almost unusable colour calibration out of the box. Rtings reviews tends to note how close the displays get to a standard colour profile after calibration. Many can be calibrated to a reasonable level though. - OLED panels are much more common in TVs.

Are there any TVs / monitors that hit the 55" level where the price isn't astoundingly different?

I have found this issue of latency to be a real challenge when connecting to a TV via HDMI so I'm curious if it gets better with larger TVs

If one of those ports is an antenna input then it is a TV. Otherwise it is a monitor. That's the "tele" in "television".

Apparently this is enforced by the regulators. If it has a tuner it will say "television" on the box. Otherwise it says something like "monitor" or "display".

TVs have wider viewing angles than PC monitors. It’s not a 1:1 comparison.

Unfortunately very few, if any computer monitors support a remote.

Just get one with an HDMI input and buy a Roku. Never give the TV your wifi password.

Sorry to break this, Roku is about as bad for ad data sharing / tracking: https://advertising.roku.com/advertiser-solutions/oneview - any time you hear things like ‘full funnel attribution’, there is a good amount of adtech in the background.

As far as I know, Apple TV doesn’t do this, and Kodi + Raspberry Pi seems clear of it too.

For my part, I don't much care about the data sharing. My issue is that our smart tv has ads and the default software is terrible. I can't believe I spent so much money only to have a measurably worse experience. I ended up buying a Roku just because the software is easier to use than the junk that LG shipped. I use 2 other HDMI ports for different games consoles, so the "smart" tv is just a source of aggravation, and I feel insulted whenever it ends up in the default software and they show me a goddamn ad.

Maybe I should have gone with Kodi.

Kodi + Real Debrid on a Chromebox is pretty amazing.

If you care about privacy but still want to use something off-the-shelf, go for an Apple TV rather than Roku.

Apple is part of NSA's PRISM according to Snowden leaks.

If the data isn’t being collected, PRISM doesn’t matter.

you could always cast something to the TV from your computer or phone with no ads.

My worry is that TV manufacturers will have the capacity to overlay ads natively on the screen.

Not just that, they will have ability to monitor what you are playing and also listen to ambient sounds, fingerprint voices and also sense how many people are in the room.

They already do. I've seen it this week in my hotel room. It was a brand I've never heard of before. But at least when watching cable TV, the picture would turn into a PIP and ads were displayed in the frame.

check out “commercial display” tvs. they always have ports and usually don’t come with as much software

AFAIK the problem with those is that they're overpriced and have inferior picture quality. I guess if you want to make a statement or something they're worth buying, but for now I still think your best choice is to buy a "smart tv" and don't connect it to wifi.

I was under the impression that commercial displays optimize for longevity instead of picture quality. Is that not the case?

Correct - they’re usually designed for always-on signage like you’d see at an airport.

You can get any tv you like -as long as it has HDMI ports- and your choice of a TiVo, appletv, etc.

My last two tvs had smart crap built in; I never set any of ot up, not even as far as connecting to wifi.

I made the switch to a projector a couple years ago and advocate highly for them. The screen can disappear when not in use, and they're "dumb by default". New LED projectors have bulbs rated to last 10k hours or more.

I use a projector as well instead of a TV but they're definitely not standard replacement for a normal TV in all situations. You need a dark room (so if you like to have the TV on while do you chores or other tasks, it won't work well with a projector), the fans can be a bit loud depending on your noise tolerance, the contrast, color and brightness/blacks won't be as good as a decent OLED TV unless you go for a very high end projector and screen, which is going to be very expensive.

It's definitely worth considering but there are pros and cons to consider, it's not an acceptable replacement in all situations.

>the contrast, color and brightness/blacks won't be as good as a decent OLED TV unless you go for a very high end projector and screen

Not even that, I suspect that projectors would be defeated by mid-range VA-LED TVs, especially when you factor in that TVs have nifty tricks like FALD

The other thing I've noticed, is that you can't casually watch something in the company of some visitors, it's going full movie night or nothing. That's a real use case I'm missing with a TV.

And you can't even make the picture on the wall smaller if you want, it always dominates completely.

When my mother is visiting we just want to half watch some game show and chit chat, we don't want to have a movie night, and we don't want to focus entirely on each other/conversation for a whole evening either, it's kind of exhausting.

My favorite shopping aggregator found 840 TVs from 70 to 85 inches. 503 of them has 4 HDMI inputs. Seems like it is most popular number of inputs for TV of that size. PC, Xbox, Playstation, media player. Do you need more?

I'm not having trouble finding one. All I said is that I'm currently shopping around, and my prediction for the future is that kind of TV will become scarce.

When our work-horse Toshiba finally fails, we're going to replace it with either a large gaming monitor or a pro signage monitor from B&H/Adorama.

Will a pro signage monitor have HDR? Will it support more than 60hz? Will it have multiple inputs? Looking at the specs for LG (just first up on the search) they have none of these features. I’d be concerned about viewing angles with a gaming monitor. I looked at all this stuff when I was TV shopping a few years ago.

I have somewhat smart TV, though bought couple of years back. It is not getting on the internet, it's only job is to receive signal over HDMI. I don't ever interact with its menus or other buttons expect power and volume, it stays on HDMI and is quite nice dumb TV.

I’m pretty happy with my Spectre that I bought from Walmart.com. I think it is only 75 inches but 4K with 4 hdmi ports and I think it was $5-600 or so.

It seems up on the latest hdmi standards and it turns on and off with the appletv plugged in.

From no TV to 70+ inch!!!

Look for a used signage panel. No commercial smart functions and quality that's barely available in consumer TVs but sometime can be had really cheap if you find the right place, look on govdeals, if your patient.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

FWIW it's pretty easy to fry eggs in a cast iron. You do have to oil the pan, but I wouldn't call it absurd. Just a dollop of oil in the pan. And the end result has a crispy, yummy texture that's hard to achieve with Teflon. It just takes a little practice and an open mind.

Not only is it possible with a reasonable amount of oil in any cast iron pan, but with a very thin cast iron pan one can do it without oil even. Eggs start sticking with high heat and the thinner the metal the lower the heat needed to cook.

Any reasonably well cured cast iron barely needs any oil

My experience with eggs is the opposite. Eggs stick when added to a cold pan. Letting the pan get really hot first has stopped eggs sticking for me.

You probably want to use a wrought iron pan for that. They can be really cheap (starting from less than 10€), are indestructible (they don’t break if you drop them) and can be much thinner than cast iron. They are better for eggs, where you want to change the temperature during frying very quickly.

Yes, a good Matfer or Solidteknics carbon steel / wrought iron / blue iron pan is fantastic for eggs, omelettes, and crepes. Matfer as a French brand even has specific crepe and omelette pans made this way.

The only downside to a Matfer, or any other carbon steel pan, is that you need to be prepared to season it yourself. They do not come pre-seasoned like most cast iron pans and it is a good bit of work. Having said that, I absolutely love the one I have and plan on buying at least one more in the future.

The quality and state of the cast iron pan makes a big difference.

If you have a good seasoning then less oil while cooking is needed. If you have a new pan with a rougher surface then using a steel spatula will smooth out the surface texture and improve performance (without making it too smooth where seasoning won't stick).

There's a lot of varying advice on cast iron, but the prevailing wisdom seems to be that if you keep using it then the pan will improve.

I actually machined, de-oiled, and polished a cast iron skillet I bought in the the supermarket. After seasoning with flax oil it was effectively non-stick. I would use a single pat of butter for 3-4 eggs. Regular use with heat control and edged steel spatula are essential to maintain seasoning. Also make sure helpful people don’t try to wash it in the dishwasher. I would just wipe it out with a paper towel and soft salt, sometimes heating it the oven with a bit of oil to restore surface smoothness. I also have a ca 1875 Swedish manufacture cast iron skillet which didn’t seem to need any machining.

Cast iron doesn’t seem to work as well on electric stoves: Temperature control is problematic. Perhaps induction heating would be more effective?

I got mine working fine on my electric after some experimenting with what heat to use.

how much is a "dollop"? Based on what I've seen[1][2], it requires significantly more oil than what I use with a non-stick. The first link definitely seems absurd to me.

[1] https://www.seriouseats.com/thmb/3KEyHXkLBbmzhHgp5P81odFcIR0...

[2] https://www.seriouseats.com/classic-over-easy-fried-eggs-rec...

I use butter. no more than a a couple millimeters slice from a stick for 2 eggs. no stick. warm the pan to a low heat. cook eggs on lower heat (should be doing that anyway regardless of pan)

I can normally fry eggs in a cast iron in about a tsp (5 ml) of oil.

I also make scrambled eggs, but tend to use a tbsp (15ml) butter, but that is more for flavor and texture than to keep from sticking

If you are making eggs in a Teflon pan without butter, I don't want any.

> crispy [...] texture

Of course it's crispy, you are deep-frying your eggs in oil, like McDonalds-style fries. It may feel delicious, like almost anything overcooked with high temperature, but it is not quite healthy.

Well you're not "deep frying" it you're pan frying it. The difference is the amount of food exposed to oil.

For eggs it is about the same, egg's white is thin enough on a skillet and its down side is fully immersed into oil.

This is just not true. Not even if you have a single egg on super large pan. And you can also use smaller pan or more eggs, that way it will be even higher.

Just because you have drowning eggs in oil does not mean everyone does it that way.

Mine take ~ 1 tsp for three eggs. I let the pan get hot enough that it slides around with water like viscosity, spread it evenly with a paper towel and throw the eggs on.

Comment I was replying to meant crispiness. That means frying in oil, in my experience. Do you know another way to get crispy texture on cast iron skillet?

You have a bit of oil under the egg.

I cook exclusively with cast iron pans (not because I’m some sort of purist, but because that’s what I happen to have), and you can absolutely fry an egg with just a bit of butter or oil and no crispiness.

You can also poach eggs just fine in a cast iron pan.

Fried eggs are just aldehyde cancer hell. There's so much out there you can cook without any oil and it's handy to know for sure. Try cooking stuff in sauces instead for example.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

We fry our eggs every morning on a cast iron skillet with a tiny amount of oil (<1 teaspoon for 6 eggs). The only time I have problems with stuff sticking is if I get impatient and don't wait for the pan to preheat.

This is one of the biggest contributors to teflon's mythology: you can't preheat a teflon pan safely (it ruins the coating), so people learn to not preheat. They then get frustrated when using other pans that things stick that wouldn't have on their teflon.

(Edit: the skillet is a cheap, unaltered Lodge, nothing antique or sanded.)

I have never put the least bit of thought or effort into frying eggs in cast iron over, say, stainless. It is a better non-stick surface overall. Teflon is gross, do you really want to risk breathing the fumes and eating even more plastic?

Stainless is hands down the best fried eggs I've ever had. It and maybe carbon steel is the only thing that gets hot enough to make it crispy.

You just need to let the pan heat up, drop a teaspoon of oil or butter, let if soak in a second then blast it and drop your egg.

More butter more better but that's flavour at that point.

For figuring out if your plans at the right heat, a spalsg of water should bead and float around.

Going that hot with Teflon will give you the Teflon flu.

Only thing I use nonstick for is scrabled eggs and pancakes where a low heat is beneficial.

I do pancakes on cast iron and love it.

Given how long pancakes have been a thing, I suspect they were invented on cast iron.

Stainless steel is also leaching metals..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4284091/

I kind of suspect the bizarre health correlation for olive oil relates to its poor temperature range.

It might be the pan but I tried to fry eggs on stainless and it was a horror movie. Even polished the pan as it had a lot of cleaning scratches and it was even worse. I seasoned it and it was better but still you have to use the right oil. Used olive oil and it stained the pan.

Out of all materials for pans, stainless is definitely the worst choice for eggs. Maybe carbon steel too if still unseasoned.

I use peanut oil and you need to make sure not to burn it on there.

For fried eggs you just need to make sure it's hot enough with oil it should bubble and fry without sticking.

I always found the plastic argument in teflon vs cast iron a bit weak. Its health risks are well documented at this point. But the seasoning on a cast iron? That is polymerized fats... One might even go so far as to call it plastic. I am told the seasoning is also a carcinogen and in my experience more likely to be ingested than Teflon from a pan (getting a good seasoning that lasts on a pan can be tough!).

FWIW I shrug and use my cast iron.

> smart TVs are cheaper than dumb TVs because they're subsidized by ad revenue.

What if you count having to view ads, and having the tv spy on you as a cost? RN,for many TVs you can just not connect to wifi, but how long until the TV won't work unless it is connected?

> Also, the claim itself doesn't really make any sense. Even if you stop getting software updates, that doesn't prevent you from using it as a dumb display.

Perhaps a better argument is that a bad software can brick the TV, or the components of the smart functionality break in a way that prevents you from using it as a dumb tv (i.e. it has more "moving parts"), and if you don't use the smart functionality, then it is a waste of the materials to make those components, and probably electricity running through the circuits. And it isn't too hard to imagine a future where the tv just stops working if it can't phone home.

>What if you count having to view ads, and having the tv spy on you as a cost?

I don't connect it to wifi, problem solved.

>for many TVs you can just not connect to wifi, but how long until the TV won't work unless it is connected?

Is there reason to believe that it won't work? The "smart" TV I have hasn't been connected to wifi for years and still works.

>Perhaps a better argument is that a bad software can brick the TV, or the components of the smart functionality break in a way that prevents you from using it as a dumb tv (i.e. it has more "moving parts")

I don't get it, are you trying to have your cake (smart functionality) and eat it too (smart functionality randomly breaking stuff)? If you use it as a dumb TV from day 1 I can't imagine why it would randomly break later.

>and if you don't use the smart functionality, then it is a waste of the materials to make those components, and probably electricity running through the circuits

The nvidia shield TV uses 6W while streaming. Presumably the smart TV component probably uses something similar or less than that. In the grand scheme of things it's nothing.

>And it isn't too hard to imagine a future where the tv just stops working if it can't phone home.

That's seems to be more of a theoretical concern than something that's actually happening right now.

> Is there reason to believe that it won't work? The "smart" TV I have hasn't been connected to wifi for years and still works.

I've heard of some tvs that work that way, rn it is the exception rather than the rule, but there is an incentive for tv makers to move in that direction.

> If you use it as a dumb TV from day 1 I can't imagine why it would randomly break later.

Smart tvs have inherently more complicated electronics, and that means more things to break. If you don't use the smart features it might be less likely for those components to break, but unless the designers were careful to sufficiently isolate the smart components, it still increases the chances of breakage.

> That's seems to be more of a theoretical concern than something that's actually happening right now.

For TVs maybe, but it is already the case for other "smart" devices like thermostats.

>I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

That's because many cast iron pans you can get these days have unpolished bottoms unlike antique ones. If you get a polished one (or polish it yourself - there's plenty of youtube videos on that) it'll be incredible non-stick. You can also just get a carbon steel pan which doesn't need polishing.

Carbon steel pans are dope, I wish more people knew about them.

Modern mass-market cast iron is garbage. Lodge's marketing department has managed to convince people that their garbage pans are actually better, and that the texture holds on to seasoning, but it's all nonsense. It's vastly cheaper for them to produce pans by skipping the polishing step. You can still get good polished cast iron, but the pans cost hundreds of dollars. Next time an old relative dies, go raid their kitchen for the good stuff.

What’s a good brand? I am new to cast iron and have a lodge and am okay with it for breakfast stuff.

I don't know; too rich for me. I just use some pans I stole from my dad's basement after he refused to give them to me, despite not having used them in 20 years.

I polished a Griswold older than anyone on this site and the eggs still stuck.

Someone then claimed my pan was manganese deficient due to some war in Gabon pre-WWII. It will always be something with these people.

Maybe you just aren't used to cooking on the pan or it needs to be seasoned further? I can cook amazing eggs on my Griswold, so I doubt the issue is the pan itself.

Lodge is just fine. All of the cast-iron snobbery overlooks the fact that it's a big hunk of metal that cowboys used to throw on a campfire to make beans. Keep cooking with it, and the bottom and its seasoning will smooth out.

Yep.. just fried an egg on my rough surface 12" cast iron Lodge with no oil, and lifted it off with my fingers in one piece.

I have a lodge pan that I took an orbital sander to. It's smooth as glass.

My parents gave me a new set of cast iron pans shortly after I started living on my own. I noticed they didn't have smooth bottoms like theirs did, so I asked my dad if he could help me smooth it out. He put a grinder attachment on the drill and went to work. I still remember it as one of the nicest things he did for me. And the pans still work great, 40 years later.

I have a 20 year old Lodge and I also use some of my grandmother's old Lodge/Griswold pans which were polished. My pan is well seasoned and pretty smooth after constant use. I've never noticed any practical difference except that mine can easily be replaced

>If you get a polished one (or polish it yourself - there's plenty of youtube videos on that) it'll be incredible non-stick.

Sounds pretty inconvenient to me, which directly opposes author's thesis.

You can also see it as an example of the author's point. New cast iron pans are subtly worse than vintage ones and people don't know about it.

There is only one conspiracy theory I believe in, it’s /reddit/r/castiron is a troll site created to make people believe ‘seasoning’ is really a thing.

After spending a few weeks trying, I’ve had multiple people tell me they got theirs ‘seasoned’ after three or four months.

Don’t let yourself be sucked in.

Yeah, it's very largely BS. If you cook enough bacon and high-fat foods in it over time.... sure.

But people who say you can easily cook eggs in it or everything else "after its seasoned" are just not to be listened to. Use a nonstick.

EDIT: Or carbon steel I guess. Even then, meh. Remember that the vast majority of professional chefs use nonstick skillets specifically for eggs both at home and in their workplace.

But you can, and I do. I cook everything in cast iron and nothing sticks.

That said, one thing I have come to realize over the past couple of decades of cooking with cast iron is that seasoning is less some mystical ritual that is performed one time, and more a result of proper use and care of the pan over time.

But yes, there is lots of ritualized BS (“Don’t wash it”, “Never use dish soap”, “Only season it using flax oil in the oven at 200 degrees for four hours”, etc etc etc).

I ground down a pan and started over on it this year. This is all it took to get it perfect:

-In the very beginning, bake it in an oven with a very thin layer of crisco two times

-Only use it for eggs for a while, letting the butter turn into seasoning with higher heat as it cools. Find the right preheating ranges by experiment.

Now it's maintenance-free and nonstick.

I cook the family breakfast on a cast iron skillet every Dadurday. I like the taste of butter with eggs and use about a 1/2 teaspoon per pan full. It's about the same for pancakes if there's oil in the batter. My best advice is to never wash the pan ...just wipe it down with a paper towel.

> My best advice is to never wash the pan ...just wipe it down with a paper towel.

Eww... You can and should wash your cast iron pans. Dish soap is no longer made with lye or other harsh chemicals, just use a bit of Dawn and a blue scrub pad (same you'd use on nonstick) and properly clean it, make sure it's very dry afterwards and put a very thin layer of oil. Also don't use paper towels on cast iron unless it's a smooth bottom pan, the modern style cast iron will cause shreds of paper to get embedded in the pan which will burn and get nasty (also paper towels are bleached and that's nasty).

Seems to be a real thing[1]. I took you literally at first, but I guess you mean you’re looking for a specific result and not seeing it? This article[2] makes a case for using (pure) flax oil and a special procedure.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasoning_(cookware)

[2] https://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-t...

That's weird that you believe this, because cast iron was the predominant way of cooking for literally centuries, and it works exactly as described. I have some new pans I've seasoned, and I have some vintage pans I inherited that my grandmother was cooking with for most of her life, and then I cooked with extensively after. Both are effectively nonstick, and I don't need much oil at all to cook with them. Care is also way easier.

There is a /lot/ of bullshit myths around cast iron, like that you cannot use soap for instance, or shouldn't scrub it, both of which are totally fine, but the idea of seasoning and what occurs when it's done properly are entirely true. Most people just want to otherthink it. All you need to do with cast iron is use it and care for it properly, the longer and more often you use it, the better it gets.

It’s definitely a real thing. But some people go nuts and I’ll never understand.

Use the right tool for the job and cast iron is definitely not the right choice a lot of the time. Unless you exclusively cook meals where heat control is never needed, I don’t see why you’d only use cast iron.

> They have their uses. I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

A seasoned pan is fine for eggs. I just use a little butter.

I switched to aluminum/copper core from Teflon and eggs are easy with a little butter, or oil, or spray. And cleaning is easier with some steel wool.

An all-clad pan was $100 but is going strong 15 years later and should last a few hundred more. My non-stick pans were $20 and lasted a year or two.

Yep, I have a small cast-iron pan that I use for eggs. It's well seasoned and the eggs don't stick. The key is you need to get it hot (not too hot, about 275 degrees F is good) then add a little butter and when that has melted, spread it around and add the eggs.

If you add the eggs with the pan too cool and then heat them up, they will stick.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil)

Which means you need to do a better job at seasoning. Cast iron is used almost exclusively at my place and I use less than 1/2 TSp oil for eggs. Granted my newest skillets are made is 1930s.

I only use cast iron, some cheap pan i bought at Ikea a decade ago. Never seasoned it. I just put some butter in it and then throw in the eggs.

What issue are we even talking about?

A $50 angle grinder and a little time will turn $20 lodge cast iron pans into the kind of quality cast iron pans that I've seen people spend hundreds of dollars on to buy antiques.

Can you elaborate?

Before something like the 1950s, casting techniques created a much rougher pan that fundamentally required grinding of the surfaces to make a usable cook surface. New(er) casting techniques developed that had a much tighter sand-pack for the casting mold, plus some sand blasting after the mold, made for a faster production cycle, but at the cost of leaving a slightly pebbly surface on the pan.

Because the older techniques weren't close to usable after the casting, the cleanup process made for a smoother pan. Because the newer techniques were much closer to usable after the mold, less cleanup was put into them, resulting in a rougher pan.

A cheap angle grinder is good enough for the relatively soft iron alloy used in cast iron pans. Grind the surface down smooth (don't forget to wear a face mask!), then finish up with increasing grades of sandpaper until you get a nearly mirror surface on the pan. Season the pan a couple of times and you'll be left with one of the most durable, non-stick surfaces for cooking that you can possibly have.

I think even without the angle grinder it wouldn't take much work starting at 220 by hand. use vegetable or food safe mineral oil and wet/dry paper.

Years of working as a programmer have left me with little in the way of endurance in my ligatures. Anything involving "elbow grease" is not a great idea for me. Even an orbital sander has too much vibration/takes too much down pressure for me.

what do you do with the angle grinder?

Well, you don't use it to cut the handle off.

You grind the bottom of the pan smooth. Isn't that obvious? I guess not, apparently. But it seems like it should be.

Since it wasn't obvious - the inside of the pan :D

Using what kind of attachment?

a flap disc.

Seems like overkill though. You could probably just hand sand it to be honest.

Probably, random orbital sander would do the trick, but slower and chew through a lot of sanding discs. It took me years to finally acquire a grinder - just no real need between sanders and saws. Once I started working on concrete and metal it became necessary, and now it seems like a luxury for all the little things which I probably should have been enjoying a long time ago. But IME, most people under 40 don’t have an angle grinder laying about. So borrow one from a 40+ friend before making the ROS do the work, IMO.

I didn't even wear out one disk using my 5" ROS sanding a 12" lodge skillet, though I started at 80 grit and worked my way to 220.

GTK, that’s better than I would have expected.

I used a flexible grinding disk.

Tools exist to make jobs easy. There is no virtue in doing hard work for hard works sake. Plus, orbital sanders tend to inflame my carpal tunnel.

Flap disc… https://www.amazon.com/Flap-Grinding-Disc-Assorted-Pack/dp/B...

Have you ever in your life tried to use an angle grinder for this sort of thing? It’s one of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle. It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes.

If i had a cast iron pan I had to flatten, I’d dog it down on my CNC router, set up a 1/4” endmill, whip up some code for 33% overlapping passes in Fusion 360, and take off .005” layers until it was flat.

Most of us don't have CNC routers sitting around doing nothing.

While angle grinders are useful and all, wouldn't the right commonly available tool for this be something like an orbital sander?

Something like this: https://www.bunnings.com.au/bosch-blue-250w-random-orbital-s...

Or for a US version: https://www.milwaukeetool.com.au/power-tools/carpentry/sande...

I wouldn't bother with all that. I'd recommend finding an antique cast iron pan (local thrift store, flea markets, Etsy, or eBay) and restoring it (there are services for this or you can do it yourself fairly easy) and using that. The antique pans are just way better.

Or you can try carbon steel which is more forgiving than cast iron. Blanc Creatives makes a great carbon steel pan/skillet.

I was not able to find an antique pan for less than the price of a modern pan and angle grinder. So I recouped my tool investment on the first pan alone.

Did you try eBay, flea markets, or thrift stores? eBay has them for as low as $15: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m...

Flea markets often have them for even cheaper. Thrift stores have them but you might pay $50--which is still cheaper than a decent angle grinder.

I'm pretty sure mine were all like $10-$20 each at thrift stores.

https://youtu.be/8SRubjZezSE

That guy is not wearing a face mask or proper eye protection. You don't want to make a habit of inhaling iron filings.

Do it in a well ventilated area, preferable outside. The fillings get everywhere, include into any vents of any other equipment you might have nearby. My glasses weren't enough to keep the filings out of my eyes. They are fine enough that they won't scratch or cut your eyes, but you will feel like you are having the worst bout of seasonal allergies you've ever had.

I was sneezing rusty boogers for 3 days.

That’s really no joke - eye protection (and ears) always.

> To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

This really bugs me. We have a product, designed to be used over heat, which leaks literal poison into your food when it gets "too hot"... WTF is that? What does "too hot" mean and how can you expect anyone to know which of their burner settings (which often have no guidance at all as to temperature beyond gradients between "low", "medium", and "high") will be hot enough to leak poison into the food they feed themselves and their families. Non-stick coating seem like the kind of thing which should be banned at this point until it's proven to be safe under typical conditions. None of the chemicals which have replaced teflon have been proved safe. They just haven't been shown to be dangerous yet, which isn't saying much considering the decades it took to prove the dangers of teflon and the efforts the manufacturers went to hide those dangers from the public they poisoned.

> smart TVs are cheaper than dumb TVs because they're subsidized by ad revenue.

I've never seen that proved anywhere. Costs have gone down over the years, and the amount of ads and data collection have increased but I haven't seen any evidence at all that there's a 1:1 connection between the two. Companies seem to be perfectly happy to charge you the most they can get away with while still collecting your data and pushing ads in your face. By limiting the availability of dumb TVs you don't even get to vote with your wallet on this one. Currently I'm recommending people replace their TVs with computer monitors, but "smart" computer monitors are the new thing and will push out the dumb models too.

For coffee: French press + grinder is straightforward and has little maintenance. Machines have to be descaled.

> French press + grinder is straightforward and has little maintenance

And even that comparison is unfair, as with that you're getting fresh ground coffee which is much better. Pod coffees are preground minimum months before you're brewing with them.

Don’t they pack them in a nitrogen atmosphere so they don’t oxidize during storage?

Yes! Every spring we open up our summer place and I have some Nespresso pods left over from the previous year. I always expect it to be terrible but find I can't tell the difference to fresh. Still, regardless of age it's just not that good to begin with, unfortunately. I get it for myself when I'm in a hurry or others who don't seem to care.

Oxidation is only one component of flavour degradation - that said, its the dominant one. So while the pods would be much better than a months-opened canister of folgers, certainly (as sealed canisters are also generally nitrogen or CO2 flushed), there are other aging processes that come into play. Pods also just don't have the best beans - and if you're grinding your beans fresh, you're probably also buying fresh beans, of better quality, from a smaller roaster.

Or just get a super automatic espresso machine. More convenient than a Nespresso, better taste, essentially zero waste. Higher initial investment (~300 EUR), lower running costs.

Where do you get a fully automatic espresso machine for 300 EUR?

Europe, I suppose. For example, the De'Longhi Magnifica S ECAM 22.110 is an entry-level machine for 279 EUR (routinely available for <250 EUR).

Here's a review: https://coffeeblog.co.uk/delonghi-magnifica-s/

https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/2416409...

Get a Delonghi Dedica ec685, you can find it at ~150€. It's the cheapest good machine I can think of.

It comes with a pressurised filter so you can throw whatever ground coffee you buy in the supermarket and it will make a decent espresso.

If you want to take it to the next level you should buy a non pressurised filter, good fresh coffee in beans and an extra 300 for a good electric grinder.

That's pretty much the cheapest setup I can think of to make a good espresso.

That is the best price/quality approach. However, if you love frothed milk a good little $200 espresso machine is good. And of course learning to make your own espresso is a fun little hobby, too. I have a strange fetish for Illy capaccino cups. My kids particularly love frothed chocolate milk! (What's really cool is that the chocolate milk can easily triple in volume, so the kids think they're drinking much more hot chocolate than they really are.) Try doing that in a French press!

I make espresso, too. The problem is the espresso machine cost and quality impact the final product significantly. A high-ish grade machine is $700 or more. You can froth milk with less, but the coffee extraction usually is subpar. And actually, people who are snobby about espresso roast their own beans so it’s hardly comparable in effort. Espresso is basically the hot-rod of coffee.

Unless you have high cholesterol. In that case you want filtered coffee.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/28/well/eat/filtered-coffee-...

That's still much more work than a pod machine. With a pod machine you just pop a pod in, put a cup under, press a button, come back 1 minute later and you're done. With your setup you have to pour out beans, wait for it to grind, start boiling water, wait for it to brew, and then clean everything up.

As another commenter said, if you don’t care for quality, you can get pre-ground. Then, you just boil water and brew, which is a few cups of coffee, so potentially less amortized work.

Cleanup is fair but it’s on the order of putting your hands in the grounds and throwing them in the trash. I suspect people think machines are easier because they don’t mind mold or scale building in their unclean tank.

Yep it's a lot more work. I think the "wait until it kinda looks like it might be ready before you press down" part is the most annoying step of the french press.

Fresh press has more and messier cleanup than other options.

> To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing

Well, alright then.

> and when they get too hot

Oh… I dunno, but this seems to be a fairly likely failure mode for a pan.

>Oh… I dunno, but this seems to be a fairly likely failure mode for a pan.

"too hot" in this context means "higher than smoke points of most oils". Like I said, they have their uses. If you're frying an egg you're likely not heating your pan to the point of smoking, and I'm certainly not going to be searing meats on a non-stick.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

Fried eggs were a thing long before before teflon. I dont know what you consider absurd about of oil, some oil is needed, but I would qualify it as "normal"

> To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

Teflon pans kill birds unfortunately. Once you live with a bird, you can’t have any hot teflon in the house because it releases toxic fumes. Fine for a human because we’re large animals, smol birds reach lethal levels within minutes.

There’s stories of people turning on an air fryer and their pet bird dropping dead in another room.

Overheated Teflon. Not egg cooking temps

At regular cooking temps, the chemicals still leach into the food. Also, you should throw a teflon pan out if it has a single scratch, since it leaches much more rapidly after that.

>At regular cooking temps, the chemicals still leach into the food

Source?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18419647/

They list "coated food contact materials" as a source of PFOS and PFOA in the abstract.

I don’t think Teflon leaches into food at normal cooking temperatures (it’s a very stable chemical), but even if it did, it’s totally fine, as Teflon is biologically inert. It is used in medicine for implants, catheter linings etc.

Teflon is definitely not biologically inert.

It leaches estrogen analogues (sometimes called xenoestrogens), and ~ 100% of people alive today have biologically active levels of those compounds in their blood.

In particular, Teflon brand nonstick coating contains PTFE and PFOAs. This has been settled science for at least 20 years.

The plastic handles on pots and pans also kill birds.

Neither are fine for humans. The dosage is still high enough to cause long term health issues. (Mostly cancer and hormone issues.)

>They have their uses. I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

It requires proper seasoning. Once you got that, egg away!

>Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

Agreed - they're not poisonous to use, but the manufacturing chemicals used to produce them are, and those chemicals are often dumped into the environment - they're also known as, "forever chemicals", which reek some havoc on well: us.

https://www.ewg.org/what-are-pfas-chemicals

>Why are they only superficially convenient? They seem pretty convenient to me.

The plastic waste they produce still have the inconvenient problem of what to do with them. Like many conveniences, the problem is just offloaded to someone else.

https://money.cnn.com/2015/03/04/news/k-cups-keurig-inventor...

Some feel microplastics in our blood stream is a worthy compromise to easy-to-make coffee.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/24/micropla...

I dunno much about TVs (I've never owned one), but sounds like subscription over ownership which, grumbles over Adobe

>The plastic waste they produce still have the inconvenient problem of what to do with them. Like many conveniences, the problem is just offloaded to someone else.

>https://money.cnn.com/2015/03/04/news/k-cups-keurig-inventor...

>Some feel microplastics in our blood stream is a worthy compromise to easy-to-make coffee.

If you're in a first world country with proper garbage disposal, those k-cups most certainly aren't contributing to the problem of microplastics. Where I live they basically get landfilled. Kind of hard for that to end up in my veins when they're buried underground.

Well is plastic waste a local environmental problem, or a global environmental problem? Is reducing waste in total not a good thing to strive for?

When do we all stop saying, "not my problem" when it comes to single-use, disposable items like this?

"20 years ago was the best time, second best time is now", kind of scenarios.

> The newer pans perform worse, and must be replaced on a shockingly regular basis.

No.

Like most things in this life, you get what you pay for.

If you cheap out on "newer pans" then sure, they won't last you because the manufacturer will use cheap manufacturing processes in order to achieve your stingy price point.

If you buy decent pans from reputable manufacturers, they will last you a lot longer.

>>*Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.*

Watch this documentary, "The Devil We Know" (About the history and toxicity of teflon.

tl;dw - its a cancer causing birth defect, testosterone/endocrine system atomic bmb and there isnt a single person alive today who can be found (according to the doc) who does not have measurable amounts of teflon in their blood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_We_Know

>Watch this documentary, "The Devil We Know" (About the history and toxicity of teflon.

Sorry, but I'm not going to watch a 95 minute documentary on a whim. Based on the wikipedia summary, it doesn't seem to contradict what I said, specifically

>regarding allegations of health hazards from perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA, also known as C8), a key ingredient used in manufacturing Teflon

I specifically mentioned in my last comment that they were "poisonous during manufacturing ".

But the ingredient still obviously makes it way to the final product, hence the documentary.

>But the ingredient still obviously makes it way to the final product

Plastic is made from oil. Do you think there's literally oil in your plastic water bottle?

Sorry I didn’t mean it like a logical conclusion. Here’s a study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17593716/

The linked study reported 7-337 ng of PFOA emitted per pan, over the span of 20 minutes. According to [1], the concentration of PFOA in the average american's blood is 2.1 μg/L, which is orders of magnitude more. I concede that there's technically some PFOAs left over in pans, but I stand by my claims that the pans themselves are a non-issue.

[1] https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/...

A pan would conceivably be used thousands of times over its lifetime, so I still see these amounts as pertinent

I don't dispute that the amounts are "pertinent", whatever that means, but going back to the original claim of the pans being "poisonous", I'm not sure the concentration is high enough to warrant that. The first result for maximum allowed concentration for PFAS is drinking water says it's 0.3 ug/L[1]. It's hard to compare drinking water standards to atmospheric standards, but at least intuitively it seems to be several of orders of magnitude higher than what's being emitted from pans during normal use. Given that, it seems a bit irresponsible to call pans "poisonous" when they're meeting all safety standards. I mean, arsenic is poisonous, a detectable amount can be found in most rice, and people eat a lot of rice, but it still seems a bit irresponsible to call rice "poisonous".

[1] https://emergingcontaminants.eu/application/files/9514/5260/...

According to this [1] the limit for PFAS in the states ranges from 13 ng/L - 1000 ng/L. So it’s on the same order of magnitude. I also would guess that the limits are conservative, just because it’s so wide-spread already.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41370-018-0099-9

You seem to be conflating the effects of chemicals previously used in the manufacture of Teflon, such as PFOA which is indeed very dangerous and toxic, and has been banned in the US, with Teflon itself, which appears to be safe.

I mean, if Teflon is so toxic, and there isn't a single person alive today who doesn't have Teflon in their blood, then why aren't there tons of documented cases of Teflon poisoning?

>Why are they only superficially convenient? They seem pretty convenient to me.

how can anything that produces a worse quality of a productivity enhancing stimulant than you would have using another method ever be truly convenient in comparison to that other method?

In what world does "quality" factor into "convenience"?

This one, in this world many things that lose quality lose convenience, for example insulin - if you decrease the quality of insulin you will be decreasing the convenience.

basically in any situation when you decrease the quality of anything to such an extent that you use it less and thus get less of the benefits that it gives you it would follow that it would be more convenient that the quality was higher.

For example - condoms, condoms that don't work very well would be inconvenient.

But also coffee, when coffee is of such poor quality that people do not drink it that is inconvenient if you are employed turning coffee into code as the funny t-shirts have it. Hence my humorous reference to productivity enhancing stimulants.

I cook eggs on cast iron every morning. I do almost all my cooking on cast iron, including crepes on occasion. Proper seasoning and maintenance makes a huge difference.

I bought the majority of my cast iron 20 years ago for about $25 and it'll likely outlast me.

Even the Nespresso inventor regrets the waste involved. Convenience, even non-superficial, has to be weighed against the negative aspects.

> Cooking equipment: essentially indestructible Cast Iron skillets transition into teflon pans. The newer pans perform worse, and must be replaced on a shockingly regular basis. They also seem to be poisonous.

No one should be surprised that people will pay more for the exact same thing over time. People want to get as much as they can as quick as they can. If you spend $100 for a cast iron pan now instead of $30 for a Teflon pan, then you have $70 less money to spend on other stuff. The average person doesn't care that over the long run they could spend $1000 on pans instead of a $100 pan that lasts a lifetime.

A cast iron pan is $19.90 today on Amazon.

It's an example of how people spend money - not an actual analysis of the pan market.

I got mine for £15 in TK Maxx (TJ in the States). It was a "Hairy Bikers" branded one, so presumably a white label manufacturer. That's not a one off either, there are always some in there at the price.

I did sand it a bit with a palm sander because the Internet told me to, but I'm pretty sure it would have been fine anyway.

It's been years, and I've deliberately seasoned it only once, and I don't think I actually really needed to. Sometimes when it's been used for tomatoes and looks thirsty, I'll put a wipe of oil in and heat it up for a bit.

I don't miss the very expensive Le Creuset wedding present non stick pan that turned out to be as bad as all the rest.

However, also in T[KJ] Maxx are 10 times more truly terrible Teflon pans.

Unless you're getting Finex or bidding for sought-after collectors' cast iron on Ebay, you can get a plain cast-iron skillet from any big-box store for $20-$30.

Get a vintage cast iron skillet; before the race to the bottom resulted in unfinished junk like Lodge, manufacturers used to machine polish the surface of the skillet.

I can put a tiny amount of oil in my cast iron and fry eggs without sticking.

Over time, cooking oils polymerize from heat and form a smooth seal in the microsurfaces of the cast iron, resulting in a natural non stick surface which is resilient and replenish-able.

80% of my stovetop cooking is in a 70 year old cast iron skillet, the rest happens in stainless steel or enameled cast iron.

>They have their uses. I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil). Also, claiming that they "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

Nonstick pans contain hormone disrupting chemicals. Just google it and there are numerous resources. Nonstick chemicals are also released into our rivers and waterways and basically impossible to remove (lots of resources for this as well).

>From nonstick pans to food packaging to make-up, hundreds of everyday products are made with PFAS chemicals that have been linked to adverse health effects, including cancer, weakened immunity and low birth weight.

>They are also a persistent pollutant in the environment, with high levels found in many public water systems.

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/to...

If you don't like cast iron then carbon steel is a similar but easier to maintain alternative. If those don't work, then enameled cast iron (i.e. Le Creuset) works.

>Nonstick pans contain hormone disrupting chemicals

Again, is this during manufacture or in the finished product? In my comment I specifically said it was poisonous during manufacture.

>Just google it and there are numerous resources

I checked on wikipedia and I found no mentions of that in the finished product.

>I checked on wikipedia and I found no mentions of that in the finished product.

It's both/ Read the article I linked above "most people in the U.S. have PFAS in their bloodstream" so these chemicals are toxic in the finished product (which they then digest when using) and during manufacture.

>While contamination of drinking water around military bases and factories gets most of the attention, the EPA says 80 percent of human exposure comes from consumer products in the home.

>It's both/ Read the article I linked above "most people in the U.S. have PFAS in their bloodstream" so these chemicals are toxic in the finished product (which they then digest when using) and during manufacture.

The "product" in this case being "non-stick pans", or various other consumer products? The wikipedia article seems to suggest the latter.

>they are still produced internationally and are imported into the United States in consumer goods such as carpet, leather and apparel, textiles, paper and packaging, coatings, rubber and plastics

>In 2020, manufacturers and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) announced an agreement to phase out some types of PFAS which are used in food packaging by 2024

>PFAS are also used by major companies of the cosmetics industry in a wide range of cosmetics, including lipstick, eye liner, mascara, foundation, concealer, lip balm, blush, nail polish and other such products

Based on that, I'm inclined to believe that there's a bunch of ways for PFAS to get into people's bloodstreams, but cookware isn't one of them (I did a quick search and they're not mentioned in the article, aside from a reference to a california legislation requiring them to be labeled). That's perfectly consistent with my prior claim that "finished non-stick pans are safe" and your claim that "most people in the U.S. have PFAS in their bloodstream".

>I'm inclined to believe that there's a bunch of ways for PFAS to get into people's bloodstreams, but cookware isn't one of them

You have the burden of proof to prove your claim/belief. I already provided a source that says "80 percent of human exposure comes from consumer products in the home." which you're making the illogical leap that that must not include pans coated in these chemicals that we use to cook on... That seems illogical. Yes there are other sources of PFAs, but you're trying to exclude one of the most obvious sources.

>That's perfectly consistent with my prior claim that "finished non-stick pans are safe"

You have literally cited zero evidence for your claim--so no it's not consistent. You're pulling this out of your ass.

I strongly suggest you do a bit more reading on the subject: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2022/03/07/pfas-guide-ch...

Regardless, I'll keep using my cast iron, carbon steel, and enameled cast iron pans--you can keep eating weird chemicals.

>You have the burden of proof to prove your claim/belief. I already provided a source that says "80 percent of human exposure comes from consumer products in the home." which you're making the illogical leap that that must not include pans coated in these chemicals that we use to cook on... That seems illogical. Yes there are other sources of PFAs, but you're trying to exclude one of the most obvious sources.

If you really want to talk about "burden of proof" and whether something "seems illogical", I'm going to take the easy way out and point out that PFAS is a set of substances which include PTFE ("teflon") as well as PFOA (used in the manufacture of PTFE). We have been conflating the two, which means many of the sources you provided for PFAS are actually invalid, at least in the context of discussing whether non-stick pans are "poisonous".

That's right... move the goalposts and don't provide any evidence again. You're arguing in bad faith so this is a waste of both our time.

>That's right... move the goalposts

Technically the original discussion was about PTFE (ie. the stuff used on pans), not PFAS (which is what your sources reference since your first reply). If anything, you're the one who moved it my subtly moving the discussion to be about PFAS. I suppose it's "moving the goalposts" to bring the discussion back to PTFEs, so I do apologize if you think that me replying to your comments constitutes acceptance of moving the discussion to be about PFAS.

>don't provide any evidence again

Here's my "evidence"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene#Safety

>PTFE is stable and nontoxic at lower temperatures

>Why are they only superficially convenient? They seem pretty convenient to me.

Because it is absurdly easy to make a pot of coffee, if you want a single cup just adjust the amount of water and coffee.

There is also instant coffee. Which can be better than Keurig.

It's not to say that there is 0 convenience its just barely so and not really worth the added cost and waste. Also if you happen to be the one that has to refill the water or wait on it to heat it's no more convenient than any other option.

Also the coffee sucks.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

I use nothing but cast iron,s on a wood-burning stove. Frying eggs is no problem at all and it does not take "an absurd amount of oil", just a light coat of butter or margarine will do the trick assuming the pan is well-seasoned. I make pancakes for 4 people about once a week, also no problem, using a silicone brush to coat the pan in a light coat of molten butter/oil (I often mix these two) and they slide right out. Just clean the hot pan with water and wipe it clean/dry after use, it will work even better the next time you use it.

PTFE-covered pans are only a thing because people have been told fat is bad. The truth is fat is not bad, just like other foods are not bad per definition. What is bad is too much fat, just like too much carbohydrates or too much salt or... etcetera. Knowing that fat is actually a good ingredient there is no reason to use those flimsy disposable aluminium pans covered in PTFE.

> Also, claiming that [PFAS] "seem to be poisonous" without any qualifiers is a little misleading. To my knowledge they're only poisonous during manufacturing (ie. the precursor chemicals) and when they get too hot.

It’s a bit difficult to exactly measure the effects of PFAS and how much of it makes it poisonous—when a study sought a control group of people without any in their blood for a study, they were not able to find a single living person on this planet that fits the definition anymore—but even with what we know the author is likely significantly understating that particular point[0].

Even if we ignore the poison released into the environment during manufacturing, I am yet to see a used Teflon pan that has no scratches (and that’s just the ones visible with naked eye). Combine with the fact that non-Teflon pans are becoming nearly impossible to find in many retail stores, and it becomes somewhat concerning.

[0] https://youtu.be/9W74aeuqsiU?t=560

I have invested in a complete range of cast iron pans. I really don't care if it's convenient or not, at least I can use whatever piece of cutlery which happens to be at hand (while not poisoning my entire family, which is a huge plus)- oh and they'll last forever.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

You need to learn how to season and care for cast iron. It doesn't take an absurd amount of oil, and the egg should slide out with ease.

Step 1: take an angle grinder to the pan and grind the pebbly surface to a smooth finish.

That's maybe step 4. Step one is going to home depo to find a food-safe angle grinder disk.

What? There's no such thing. There won't be any of the disk left over on the pan after your done grinding. And you clean the pan before seasoning it. And seasoning it will burn away/encapsulate anything left over. Stop being such a worry wart.

Yeah, it’s metal man. You’d be shocked at how many non food safe implements of destruction have touched that pan in its fabrication. Being metal, it’s easy to clean up to become food safe. A little oil, maybe a little salt scrub, a rinse, then low heat with some oil for a while to drive out the moisture and start the season.

>> season and care for cast iron

So they need more work and skill than other pans. In other words: they are in fact less convenient.

Cast iron also has multiple issues when used with induction ranges, which are by far the most efficient/environmental cookers.

In exchange for learning how to keep it seasoned, you get to use metal cooking instruments again.

Cleaning cast iron is easier than cleaning teflon or stainless. However, you'll want something to scrape it with, and a stanless steel pot scrubber.

We use cast iron on our induction range with no problems. The only issues I've heard of involve scratching. The new models don't seem to have that issue (and cast is no scratchier than stainless, etc).

I just put my stainless pan in the dishwasher. Doesn't get much easier than that. That's why I got it. I keep a Teflon and my old cast iron pan around, but the stainless steel one is the workhorse. If I had to let one go, it'd be the cast iron pan.

Our top of the line dishwasher doesn't reliably remove burnt on stuff from stainless steel, so I end up scraping it before putting it in the dishwasher. Cast iron would be done at that point, but stainless needs a degreasing step after that.

Cast iron is best if it's the workhorse. Not using it regularly degrades the seasoning.

I find that the amount of knowledge and effort to "care" for a cast iron pan is overestimated.

I treat mine no differently than any other pan and do all of the things that I do to any other frying pan. I wash it with soap and the scratchy side of the sponge, I store it with no oil, I cook acidic sauces, I let it soak in the sink, etc...

The seasoning is fine, once I accidentally left it on the burner and it burnt off the seasoning (something that would have destroyed any teflon pan). I just used a little extra oil the next few times.

I haven't used it extensively with an induction burner, but I don't have any complaints....

> Cast iron also has multiple issues when used with induction ranges, which are by far the most efficient/environmental cookers.

This is the first I’m hearing of this. My understanding is that pans only need to be magnetic to work with induction, in which case cast iron are prime candidates for induction.

My issue is the induction area is smaller than my pan and cast iron conducts heat poorly, so only the middle ~7" of my 12" pan is hot, the rest is downright cold.

Though my cast iron wok heats properly, for almost the same reason!

Scratches are a minor issue because the induction surface is flat, as opposed to electric/gas which are not. A heavier dropped pan can also sometime shatter the glass surface of an induction range. And being heavier, a cast iron pan requires more electricity to heat. If you are cooking an egg in a 5-lb pan the vast majority of the power goes to heating the pan. A thinner/cheaper pan will heat faster, pass more heat to the actual food, and therefore use less electricity.

Their point about "smart" TV's having a shorter life than older dumb TV is a valid point. Some models tend to become pretty useless and at least inconvenient when their software gets outdated. Some require internet access to function while others just make it difficult to use streaming dongles and the like.

The real issue is the lack of security in these devices. Updates are rare enough but for something that bridges your home network with the internet this is an agregious failing.

This doesn't even touch on the repairability issues inherent in modern TV design.

>Their point about "smart" TV's having a shorter life than older dumb TV is a valid point. Some models tend to become pretty useless and at least inconvenient when their software gets outdated.

This sounds like a non-issue, in a "broken escalators become stairs" kind of way. If your smart TV doesn't work because it hasn't received software updates for years, and the youtube/netflix app no longer works anymore, can't you just... use it as a dumb TV?

>This doesn't even touch on the repairability issues inherent in modern TV design.

What "repairability issues"? TVs hasn't been repariable for decades now.

> I wouldn't try frying eggs in a cast iron, for instance (technically you can, but it requires an absurd amount of oil).

You’d be surprised. I have a Lodge cast iron pan I fry eggs in regularly. A tablespoon of butter is enough for three eggs, and only occasionally is there a spot or two that sticks.

The trick is heat. High heat causes them to unstick fairly quickly, to the point where I can typically just shake the pan to release them in their entirety.

That said I haven’t tried to scramble eggs in cast iron. I suspect this would not work nearly as well.

I've done eggs frequently in cast iron and in non stick and I think they turn out a bit better to my tastes in cast iron, but are slightly easier and quicker in nonstick.

>> Even if you stop getting software updates, that doesn't prevent you from using it as a dumb display.

Until a software update on your media player means you need a display with a different DRM. No matter what display you use, the media transfer method to that display (DVD/VGA/HDMI/Wifi etc) will probably be obsolete before the display itself goes dark.

Friend, you need a carbon steel pan. Fraction of the weight of cast iron, just as indestructible, no health risks like Teflon.

Check out the Misen ones, their marketing video is literally all about an egg slipping around it like water.

You have to season it, but it's easy to do. Number one mistake most people make is seasoning with too much oil.

Frying an egg is a common test to check whether your pan is non stick or needs seasoning.

You may want to avoid vegetables that lose a lot of water as that will wear your non-stickiness faster.

Nothing than rubbing some oil and putting in the oven won't solve.

I agree that you have to know your tools, the results you want and etc to make an evaluation.

It’s so easy to just say “oh that’s to extract money from you” when you don’t know…

> Why are they only superficially convenient?

Because they're a PITA to clean compared to a regular coffee maker.

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