Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn't be normal | Hacker News Reader

Feeling uncomfortable when leaving phone at home shouldn't be normal

vaidik.bearblog.dev

271 pointsapson375 comments

Personally I find modern technology to be very liberating.

When I was a child, even going around my own city was a stressful thing. What if I get lost? What if I run out of money for the train? How do I know I got the bus in the right direction? (the darn things didn't announce stops at all).

The first times I traveled involved printing a stack of papers including names, addresses, and maps. Getting to a hotel in a country you've never been before and without having a good command of the local language is stressful.

With modern tech? It's all a breeze. I can find a route to anywhere, check if the place I'm going to is open, call for help if needed, find a bar/restaurant/hotel if something unplanned happens, talk to the people I'm going to meet, check on the status of my flight...

Yeah, I don't feel very comfortable without my phone precisely because it provides so much useful stuff that I don't have otherwise. And no, it's not because I've grown addicted to it, but because the discomfort that I already had before smartphones were a thing returns.

I want to just dive into a little bit of a tangent.

It's interesting to me that you're liberated by having access to everything all the time. Personally I find it pretty constraining. It makes me feel like there's nothing to discover, no mystery, no journey. If I wanted to find the best restaurant, I wouldn't have to go out and explore the local options or discuss it with friends. The more efficient and correct way would be to just search for it in the database. There's no excuse for going someplace without knowing anything about it, since all the information is so easily accessible.

While yes, google maps has allowed me to always know where I am, it does so at the cost of defining a "correct" path to any destination. Any deviation from the "correct" way is no longer happenstance, but a deliberate inefficiency that demands explanation.

I've had the opposite experience. Google Maps has enabled me to explore randomly with a lot more confidence than before. Now I'm much more willing to take a random side-road, knowing that I won't get lost even if there are no street name signs. I also know that I can return to my original destination as efficiently as possible instead of getting stuck unable to merge back onto a motorway.

Similarly, I'm now much more relaxed about taking random road trips to "wherever". I know I can find fuel, food, and bathrooms.

You don’t need an excuse to explore blindly. I agree that you no longer have one, but I think that is simply a fact of the modern world that requires adaptation. We have to be more honest with ourselves about why we explore.

Having information doesn't constrain you, it's your choice what to do with it.

You don't have to follow the GPS' directions. You could just use it to find which way to walk, then take whatever path you want. You can get a list of restaurants and then ignore the ratings.

I agree. You are describing the concept of flaneuring, which is something that is getting lost on this hyperconnected culture.

My worry is that by removing all chance of variability in our lives, we become automatons.

You do it because your tastes are different than others. Just because it is labeled as the best restaurant doesn't mean it is the best nor does it mean you will like it. There are still plenty of out of the way places to explore. On the other hand, if you don't have time to explore it can help you narrow down your choices. Not to mention of you search for "best restaurant at place x" you'll get a half dozen different ones. It is just a tool, just it wisely.

I frequently eschew the usage of google maps when traveling after the initial, stressful arrival in a new place. Just because you have the power of google maps at your fingertips all the time, it doesn’t mean you need to use it all the time. And no, it doesn’t demand an explanation to do so. It is your friggin life, live it as you wish, you owe us nothing.

This pretty much nails it, though in my case I wasn't a child.

In my early 20s I lived in Japan for a few years. Early on, before I had a phone of any type (let alone a smartphone), it was incredibly stressful – even though I had studied the language prior to arriving, it wasn't enough to handle more than the most basic situations and trying to meet and coordinate with others was a nightmare. If anything deviated from the plan, including me getting lost somewhere along the way, it all fell apart.

After having been there for a couple of months I got an iPhone 3GS and it was transformative, even though things like map apps were nowhere near as good as they are now (for example, all the location names were still in Japanese even in the English version of the app, and couldn't handle transit instructions). With it I felt much more confident in going places and doing things. Being able to text or be texted, "hey I'm going to be late" or see where I am on a map instantly such a huge thing.

This effect isn't going to be strong in one's own country of course, but it's still going to be there whenever visiting an unfamiliar area.

I was in Japan in the pre smartphone years and it was really hard. To go anywhere by train I had memorized a fixed number of routes, though its not like I would randomly cross the city to go to a famous ramen place or something, because I’d just get lost anyway. I honestly can’t remember how we found things in Tokyo since there is no consistent street address system, probably just getting close and circling for 20 minutes or asking someone, or trying to read numbers off telephone polls or local area maps. There was a sense of one’s “home turf” where you knew everything, and then leaving that was like exploring somewhere new. Now when I travel its an undifferentiated mass of places I can look up on google. I miss the serendipity of it all now, the excitement of finding something really cool and unexpected, but don’t have as much time to explore.

> If anything deviated from the plan, including me getting lost somewhere along the way, it all fell apart.

I hate to say it, but this is exactly why most people are tourists and not travelers: getting lost is the best part of traveling, it's only when you randomly find yourself in the most remote part of say Kyushu that you find the quaint ramen shop that you have the best bowl of Tonkotsu and meet a lot of people that were never mentioned in your AAA travel brochure when you realize what it really is all about.

Nothing about what you said was how I traveled all over Europe back in 2012 and I probably did more in 2 weeks than you did in a year as a result. (I lived there for 3.5 years, and I speak over 5 languages now for those reasons.)

Technology is fine, it's the person who makes it a replacement for Life that is my issue.

With that said, I just traveled half way around the World with 5 phones, none of which had any data (and sim cards weren't recognized in some networks) and I got home fine.

Getting lost is how I found "Piss Alley" in Tokyo [1]. It became a must-stop after.

My fondest memories are steaming hot gyoza in the alley — and sharing a bench with a Japanese professor (whose English was very good), him recommending one drink after another (the first time I tried Korean makgeolli).

[1] https://youtu.be/g169m7SbmYU

I too value getting lost while traveling sometimes, but that's for me to do in my own time, not when trying to honor commitments made with others.

Before the pandemic, I went to Japan for 3 weeks and my cellphone was absolutely a lifesaver.

I went to a lot of city where I would have been lost without Google Lens, Google Maps, HyperDia for trains, "Japan Official Travel App", etc.

But with it, I've traveled accross less touristic cities and I was feeling confortable visiting local places without ant knowledge of the Japanese language beside a few words.

I would never dare to do that without my phone.

It was somewhat joyful for me to be lost in Tokyo the moment my wife and young daughters stepped off the train. While I had a sort of crude printed map showing the location of our hotel from the station, I still had to approach several very shy Japanese locals and try with my English to get oriented with regard to the map (since there are of course maybe a dozen or so ways to have exited said station).

What came to mind, "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers."

I thought it made for a good example for my children who might be otherwise afraid to simply ask someone for directions (even though they might speak a different language).

I recently started intentionally leaving my phone behind precisely to get those uncomfortable feelings back again, albeit to some controlled degree. I enjoy having to problem solve, I enjoy navigating novel situations, I enjoy feeling real accomplishment after solving problems rather than just having the answers given to me.

Of course there's other ways to get those feelings in life, but I was in general just finding myself getting way too comfortable in daily life. It felt abnormal, unnatural, in a way. There's also the added benefit of not being able to retreat into your phone for entertainment, it forces you to engage with the world around you.

I find the value of a smart phone irreplacable, it allows me to do all kinds of things and live all kinds of ways that were impossible before.

Yet I also love leaving my smart phone at home, or in my pocket, and trying to get lost and then get home.

Why not focus on solving problems the smartphone hasn't solved yet?

Because sometimes the fun is the journey itself, and not the destination.

Try leaving your wallet (or equivalent) at home rather than your smart phone. ;)

I like this perspective, and indeed, I recently had a physical job interview and it went like this: I bike to the train station, check when the next train will arrive and as I walk into the station (phone knows where I am, I just enter where I want to go), then prep for the interview on the train, Apple pay for a sandwich at a transfer station, check email for exact address, use navigation to walk to the final destination. I had a Teams call with colleagues on the train even.

It's all doable without smartphone, but the prep time and the notes and cash (or passes) I'd have to take...

I had to leave my country a couple of months ago because of the war. If not for the modern technology, I would become a poor refugee, locked out of my money, without any income and social connections and would be relying on finding benevolent strangers.

But with it, I almost painfully transitioned to digital nomad lifestyle. My remote job didn't suffer except for a single week long absence, I have access to all of my savings, I'm in contact with everybody I know, and I just go from living in Hilton to the next airbnb.

Finding yourself in a new country where you don't know a single soul used to be terrifying. Now I it's the most natural thing.

I’m assuming “my country” = Ukraine. I’d love to hear more about your experience. Do you feel you want be able to go back in near future? Or is this the new lifestyle the way you want things to be?

No, it's Russia, and I can't compare my hosted evacuation right after the start of the war with what Ukrainians are going through.

But unlike them, I don't see myself ever coming back. Ukraine will be rebuilt after this war, and will be stronger than ever. But Russia is completely done after this moral catastrophe regardless of how the war ends.

Well said. It is disappointing to see such black and white thinking in discussion of the role of technology in daily life.

Do I think there is a real problem with how social media brings out the worst in society? Very much so. But that is almost entirely orthogonal to how I use the (frankly amazing) pocket supercomputer I now carry with me every day.

When I was a kid, mail back home when we lived overseas was a three-month round trip. A 15-minute phone call on Christmas was only possible by pulling a lot of strings. Nowadays? I can pull up a half-dozen webcams in the same neighborhood from literally across the globe.

We may be coming to grips as a world in how to talk to each other effectively, but I don't miss being cut off. Communication matters.

Would you make the same argument for amphetamines? Wonder what Erdős would have to say about this.

As far as communication goes, frankly, I regard large swaths of the internet as hostile and cognitohazardous. I'd rather be cut off. Though, fortunately the choice has already been made for me - there is no escaping assimilation.

The psychological dependence is already taking root; the societal dependence is next to come. Cash is dirty. There are no taxis to hail on the road. You require a COVID app to gain entry to this venue.

Some of what you described I believe to be very healthy discomfort. The type that is needed for growth. The type that can often lead to unexpected adventures. The type that you become thankful for years down the road. "It's all a breeze" is my biggest fear re: how society seems to be optimizing itself right now. Truth be told, a breezy life doesn't feel that interesting to me.

Of things I used to need to carry, interface with, or reference the iphone is: a gps/atlas, camera, camcorder, dictionary, calculator, encyclopedia, checkbook, pager, e-mail terminal, yellow pages, on and on, and a phone. It’s easy to pretend that it’s just a doom-scrolling distraction but that’s not true. To give up all those other things would make life much more difficult.

Agreed. Years ago I decided to stop texting people as the primary form of contact and instead call them. Now everyone I know calls me cause they know I don't text. This cut down my phone usage by a lot.

I also don't pull it out to pass time, instead I just try to think about my schedule and sort out thoughts. I remember reading someones comment on HN where they said it's ok to be bored, that down time is the best for organizing things in your head, and I've stuck to that ever since.

And although I hardly use my phone I still feel some anxiety not having it when I leave the house.

> And although I hardly use my phone I still feel some anxiety not having it when I leave the house.

Edge case anxiety?

I feel the same anxiety if I don't have my wristwatch so maybe it's more like the dread of missing something

I went to Canada on a work trip some years back, and there was basically no way for me to get mobile internet in any way - roaming would have been absurdly expensive, like several euro per MB expensive, I couldn't get a local sim card that would work with my phone(and even if I could all offers were weirdly expensive and not worth it for just a week long visit) - and yeah, I felt super uncomfortable travelling anywhere. It was difficult finding places to go or even calling a taxi.

But then I went just before the pandemic hit and I managed to get a card with like 2GB of data on it, and oh my god it transformed the experience entirely, for the extact reasons you said - it was just liberating. I could suddenly summon an uber, find places to eat, look up opening times at nearest attractions....my stay was about 100x more enjoable thanks to that.

It’s so much easier with a smartphone and data. Luckily it’s even easier to get a SIM card now. In most countries you can get an esim online.

To put it another way, consider if you have a significant other (where you share bank accounts, for example):

Are you uncomfortable without your phone even if they have theirs?

I’ve been in this situation and it’s not a problem at all. In some situations, it may be an inconvenience, but I wouldn’t call it “uncomfortable”.

But with my SO having her phone, we have all emergency situations covered (directions, contacting others, money, etc.), and that doesn’t — and _shouldn’t_ — bother me.

I don’t get this. I got a cel phone when I was 22. Before that, I didn’t have the faintest idea that I was missing anything. I ranged as far as I could, first by bike, then by car. I kept quarters in my car for pay phones. I had a book of paper street maps on the floor in the back seat. I knew where every amenity of every type was in every town in the eastern half of the state. I learned their locations by looking out the windshield.

Not only that, but having a camera with you at all times is fantastic. Besides the typical selfies with friends and random shots, it's a way to capture some proof that you gave someone money, or that your car was hit from the side. Then there's the ability to take notes without worrying about losing a pen and paper. Basically, it's a "digital recording device" that we've taken for granted.

It took me a while to internalize "Just take a picture." And arguably it's still not an automatic reaction. Sure, most of the time you don't need it but it's essentially free.

Unless your day-to-day is so extraordinary that you don't have any kind of routine, it seems that you are using the exceptional cases to justify the rule?

Before working from home I had a routine that would be pretty regular till end of workday, but evenings were often as not totally spontaneous affairs, especially in summer. Without a smartphone a lot of that wouldn't have happened since we wouldn't realistically have planned those things in advance, and I'd have been lost in parts of the city I don't know well quite a few times, late at night and all. With my smartphone, I can just rent a bike (can't do that here without an app) and have the phone navigate me home. I'm old enough to remember quite well how difficult and frustrating these situations could get before smartphones.

I used to carry a real camera around (and I got tons of super spontaneous shots out of it that I'm very fond of), now the iPhone will do that too. It's become a bit like the small pocket knife I always carry, a minimal one with just blade, bottle/can opener, screwdriver, I feel naked without it because it's been so very handy hundreds of times. Same with my smartphone, I use it so much for things that would be a hassle otherwise that not having it on me is a real impediment.

This must be like when in threads about Uber, people describe taxis as a traumatizing hellscape. When I was a child, I figured out how my city was shaped, and figured out how to get around. Knowing how to get around one's own city is a skill worth learning, and is less of a time investment than fishing around for a phone to spend minutes futzing around with for the rest of your life.

> The first times I traveled involved printing a stack of papers including names, addresses, and maps. Getting to a hotel in a country you've never been before and without having a good command of the local language is stressful.

Not a problem most people have often. For the pretty well-traveled, maybe a few times a year.

> When I was a child, I figured out how my city was shaped, and figured out how to get around.

You either live in a pretty small city, or an exceptionally well-laid one. I have lived in the same city all my life, and while I have a pretty good idea of where major points of interest are, and can probably walk or drive home from anywhere in the city, I definitely don't have any chance of finding a random address someone gave me, or finding a bus&tram route there.

There are some of us who will never learn 'how to get around' one's city. We lack a head for sense of direction, for memorising landmarks etc. We can try all our life, and we'll only cope, but never be comfy.

Of course, if I'm just going to commute to the office and come back, I could do it blindfolded, and those days it's easy to be without the phone. It's exactly when you're doing something unusual that the phone is so handy.

Just because you don’t have the problem doesn’t mean you should trivialise someone else’s experience. How rude.

Try listening more, and hold back from telling people how to solve problems they didn’t ask for help solving.

I moved to the SF Bay area and it was great being able to use the GPS + map app to see where you are on the BART. Its impossible to understand the announcements if they are even made at all.

Yeah, I remember having to drive alone across Europe before consumer GPS was a thing. I had a pile of maps and had to stop regularly to study them. But driving in cities like Berlin and Frankfurt was a nightmare - most of the time stopping wasn't an option, I had a map on my steering wheel at all times, trying to read street names and signs in a language I didn't understand.

The smartphone generation will never understand.

I agree with the feeling of liberation, but I’ve also known a time when I had to navigate the world without a phone, and there was a solution: ask for help. It was stressful to interact with stranger, at least the initial contact, but also very enjoyable to get advice and simply an answer to my question. I never get a feeling of gratitude for my phone and I miss it.

Those are all excellent points, but fail to address the addictive downsides OP mentioned.

The business model of the internet has always been surveillance and modern smartphones + tech companies have taken that to the extreme.

Brilliant engineers / behavioral scientists using supercomputers to manipulate humans at scale guarantees that the average individual (and teenagers etc) has absolutely no fighting chance.

The thing about addiction at this scale is that... no one things they're addicted because our entire world/society is addicted - so we all justify it and move on.

I went on a silent meditation retreat for 10+ days (with no technology, talking, or smartphones etc) and it was awesome for my mind, but then, turning my phone on after 10+ days of it being off brought back the dread 2x as more.

I traveled (as did many at the time) quite extensively in countries around the world with minimal planning and/or knowledge and no phone and it was absolutely fine.

Secure personal storage of documents and cash is the only must. Politeness and respect for local people was also very helpful.

The big upside is that you have genuinely unexpected experiences.

A lot of the things you're worried about are worries about the design and efficiency of the systems you're encountering, like buses should be frequent enough that getting the wrong direction would be an inconvenience, not about getting lost. You could repeat for a number of other things. Mobile and internet technologies are papering over a lot of societal ills that are either being neglected or are being destroyed for other reasons.

That is because you were a child. Not because you didn't have a phone.

I don't think that's true at all. There's a lot of sources of anxiety (while on the go) that having a phone with you mitigates.

- If I miss my turn (gps will renavigate)

- If I can't find the place (I can call them and ask)

- If there's something else I need to get while I'm out (my spouse can call me and tell me)

- My tween, who stayed at home while I ran to the store, has a problem (she can call me)

These are all things (except for the last one) that I experienced without a phone, as a grown adult. And I don't really experience anymore because I have a cell phone on me.

Not only that, but a phone solves the "where am I" problem, which was such a pain when I was younger. Having to look for the nearest street signs while driving around, barely being able to read them and guessing its suffix, then searching the map index for which coordinate that street is in. Basically all problems solved by GPS. The directions feature you pointed out is basically a whole other application (replacing printing mapquest or written directions).

How did humanity manage?! /s

Don’t get me wrong, smartphones are great conveniences, I can land in a foreign country and book a hotel, a car from the airport, find a place for lunch, etc. all (surreptitiously) while waiting at passport control. That being said I making a plan with someone (and not flaking), and doing a little research/looking at a map, asking friends for recommendations, was never that hard)

Never traveled to a country where you didn't speak the language, I'm guessing?

You describe basically google maps. It may surprise you, but there are few million other apps for it, some more addictive, some just functional, many creating this cozy sweet little trap of comfort, security, instantness (for the lack of better word).

What it gives to you, me, anybody, is 2-faced gift. The positives are really nice, the negative is utter dependence ie in way you describe. If somebody would blast all mobile antennas in your city, you would be screwed, desperate, possibly depressed. The term liberating may have different meaning to different people.

I would be screwed too, but rather due to losing instant contact with my closest family and instant way to manage my property via airbnb/vrbo - this is the reason I started using my phone on vacations. Before, I would just keep roaming turned off, not log into wifis and spend 2 weeks (or 3 months) of proper disconnect. Simple, wonderful, magical times they were.

"Stories set in the Culture in which Things Went Wrong tended to start with humans losing or forgetting or deliberately leaving behind their terminal. It was a conventional opening, the equivalent of straying off the path in the wild woods in one age, or a car breaking down at night on a lonely road in another.

A terminal, in the shape of a ring, button, bracelet or pen or whatever, was your link with everybody and everything else in the Culture. Without a terminal, you were never more than a question or a shout away from almost anything you wanted to know, or almost any help you could possibly need."

--Iain M. Banks, in The Player of Games

So I had a feeling "without a terminal" was a typo and I wanted to look up the exact quote. I googled the sentence and expected the right quote to be at the top, but all Google gave me was results for helping people with terminal cancer cope with their coming death.

It was only after I appended "Ian M Banks" that I got the result I was looking for. I'm honestly surprised Google failed that search so hard.

Google has become blinded by metrics focused on giving people what an algorithm things most people want.

It's the digital equivalent of going to a restaurant and looking for vegetarian food only to be inundated with gluten-free and other health-fad foods.

I suspect their algorithm is in a bit of a doom loop as it's being trained on people clicking worse and worse results of pages that seem clearly written to game the SEO.

This is not unique to google. Amazon keeps including things I didn't search for because they want to be "helpful".

Indeed, my experience at big box hardware stores is matching this as well. If you go for one simple thing that you know you want, you're presented with an entire aisle of absolute crap that sort of does it but for much more money while the one item you need is out of stock.

Little nitpick: "the algorithm" does not even find the things "most people wants"; it finds the things some executive or other decided it was the most convenient to find taking into account the needs of the corporation only. Yes, there is theoretically some way to return, up to some degree, what people would find useful; but the decisions are not made by the people fiddling with the algorithms. Those people have their hands tied and must follow the interests of someone who most of the time knows nothing about algorithms or people or the end product.

ironic. search engine optimization, rather than minimizing the entropy of search, maximized it..

Gluten free isn't a health fad. Please learn about celiacs.

(I misunderstood your comment initially so corrected this sentence) The problem is that the sentence is typo'd so searching for the exact quote (not keywords) doesn't work correctly. For the record the actual quote is:

>With a terminal, you were never more than a question or a shout away from almost anything you wanted to know, or almost any help you could possibly need

When you Google that in quotes you get actual results from Google Books and Goodreads, while Bing/DuckDuckGo only returns an archive from a random blog that quotes it halfway down the page, and the new hot search engine Brave finds nothing. I agree it's a little disappointing that one mistaken word throws Google so far off the trail.

For me on duckduckgo, the first two results are this thread and the fourth is the story itself.

>There were (true) stories of people falling off cliffs and the terminal relaying their scream in time for a Hub unit to switch to that terminal's camera, realise what was happening and displace a drone to catch the faller in mid-air; there were other stories about terminals recording the severing of their owner's head from their body in an accident, and summoning a medical drone in time to save the brain, leaving the de-bodied person with no more a problem than finding ways to pass the months it took to grow a new body.

>A terminal was safety.

>So Gurgeh took his on the longer walks.

Our cell phones might sometimes be pretty useful devices, but they're not quite capable of that sort of thing yet.

Still, you can walk around and explore without using it, while still having it along in a pocket just in case you do the modern equivalent of fall off a cliff or get decapitated. Just better hope you have cell service and your battery is charged up if you do.

I got a smartphone 10 years ago after a trip where I got lost in an unfamiliar city at night. I did manage to navigate my way around by sense of direction and spotting buildings and river, and was just a little late to the party I was going to. But I thought something with maps would be more useful than a flip-phone if I ever got lost while traveling again.

A few years later, exploring randomly in the mountains a couple of states away with my wife, we pulled into a small town late one evening and got out our phones to look for a place to eat and a place to stay. No service, for either of us. So we just wandered around the town with our eyes open and asked people. Found a great restaurant and a nice quiet little bed and breakfast. Once again serendipity beat the cell phone.

What is more concerning is that kids who've grown up with them their entire lives just might not be able to handle that sort of thing. They might just freak out as much as if they had fallen off a cliff or something.

> I agree it's a little disappointing that one mistaken word throws Google so far off the trail.

But can you imagine the aggravation if Google chooses to do the opposite and 'helpfully' 'corrects' your quotes for you? Actually I am not sure I have to imagine...

Google has become borderline unusable for finding something that's not popular that's more than a month or year old. Multiple times I have spent more than 5 to 10 minutes trying to find something I have read a few years or even a few months ago and it's next to impossible to find it, even with time gating the results Google just keeps returning popular search results over specificity. The long tail is just ignored in their current algo.

People are constantly saying these things about google and when I search for:

"Stories set in the Culture in which Things Went Wrong tended to start with humans losing or forgetting or deliberately leaving behind their terminal"

I get the exact answer as a snippet at the top of the search. I am beginning to think everyone that has bad search results has some kind of malware installed on their computer since their searches always work for me.

It fails if you search for the incorrect quote; the last sentence should start "With" and not "Without". Checking competitors, Bing fails to find any variation of the quote, Yandex returns 5 results if you remove the incorrect word and quote it, but returns garbage otherwise. Considering the single-digit number of results for an apparently very obscure quote, and that it was incorrect, this does seem reasonable.

I'm starting to think that standards are simply rising over time. 10 years ago, would anyone complain that an incorrect quote from a 30-year-old book didn't return results?

Parent likely searched without hard quotes; leading to the bad results.

Google is optimized around showing ads, not returning relevant search results.

Not surprised. The way I see it, Google is trying so hard to monetize search that they have left behind any pretense of information retrieval.

..but it was a typo, yeah?

Yes, it should be "With a terminal".

First thing I thought about as well. I really think The Culture is very special in its ability to "feel" the future.

Well not that I live in a bad neighborhood or anything like that, but you really don't know what could happen at any given moment, and need to phone emergency services. This is not paranoia (well maybe it is), but paranoia doesn't work retroactively, you have to be proactively paranoid.

If you're concerned about privacy buy one of those cheap Nokia dumbphones that old people use. Keep your smartphone at home, and swap out the SIM from the dumbphone to your smartphone if your threat model requires you to.

It's a radio I can use to summon help. Why would I _ever_ want to be without that?

Turn the notifications off, or get something like Tasker that can turn them off and on for you on a schedule. Otherwise, keep it in your pocket. This device has no control over you that you don't allow it to have.

> It's a radio I can use to summon help. Why would I _ever_ want to be without that?

I think it's good for you to occasionally to know that you are on your own. Completely responsible on what you do. Be it on the nearby forest or in some more extreme situation. I am not sure the direction of (illusion of) ultrasafety where our society has been going is all good. Occasionally it's good to have the red pill instead of the blue. Keeps your mind clear.

On the other hand, people who don't have the "illusion of ultrasafety" seem to develop a habit of just accepting danger as part of life, to the point of actively speaking out against things like automatic detection for kids left in hot cars.

I think the "Blue pill" mindset is more useful overall. The red pill generally does nothing to build a safer world.

You are always on your own. We know from evidence that even in a city, if an extreme situation develops, you will almost certainly have to fend for yourself. Police have been known to turn their backs before putting themselves in certain danger and the ratio of police officers to citizens is something to actually ponder.

If you really thirst for that feeling of _onus_, then I can honestly suggest skydiving. You are extremely responsible for every little thing you do. Still, though, take your phone with you... you never know what might go wrong.

> This device has no control over you that you don't allow it to have.

I wish this were true. Phones leak data about users, which companies use to make profiles about you to serve you advertisements. Even if you block advertisements, the profile is still there. Companies are coming up with new ways to use this data. You can read more about that here:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/12/19/opinion/locat...

https://archive.ph/se3nT

Pre-phones, it just wasn’t something you thought about. If you came up with a phone, you just may not be able to get it.

Pre-phones, you had functional payphones, etc, around to summon help with. People were more likely to be understanding and to make a call for you if you knocked on their door.

I had to hike to a payphone a couple of times when I was stranded. That wouldn't work anymore.

To reach the level of security that I had as a teenager, I need a mobile phone.

There's places where a phone won't help you at all. On the other hand, just screaming will. Screaming, like not yelling, screaming. Helped me out exactly three weeks ago today, when I was getting coercively shepherded by supermarket guards, into the supermarket, because the cashier accused me of not paying. But they weren't interested in seeing my receipt. Just in harassing me. Fortunately Jessica at the Farmacias Manríquez (near Merced and José Miguel de la Barra in downtown Santiago) across the street heard me scream "I want you to call the real cops! You have no right to do this! Look at my receipt!" (in Spanish of course) and called my people, whom I couldn't reach because I left my phone at home. And they showed up, asked what the fuck, and I talked to the lawyer extensively about it, he agreed it was harassment and coercive threats.

Who knew, screaming calls attention? And I couldn't use a phone because my hands were full, I was carrying glass bottles home that way because I didn't want to pay for a plastic bag. If I dropped them, they would say since they accused me of stealing them that I destroyed the merchandise and was a thief for sure. And then taken me to the ground and beat me up, that's their job basically.

Thanks Jessica of Farmacias Manríquez!

So phones? Not always a big help.

This story is baffling.

> Fortunately Jessica at the Farmacias Manríquez (near Merced and José Miguel de la Barra in downtown Santiago) across the street heard me scream "I want you to call the real cops! You have no right to do this! Look at my receipt!" (in Spanish of course) and called my people

Maybe social circles in south america are orders of magnitude bigger than the ones I have, but in an urban area it seems unlikely that there's going to be a random passer by that would know you well enough that they can "call your people"

> And I couldn't use a phone because my hands were full, I was carrying glass bottles home that way because I didn't want to pay for a plastic bag. If I dropped them, they would say since they accused me of stealing them that I destroyed the merchandise and was a thief for sure.

Why was slowly putting the bottles down and then getting out your phone not an option?

> Why was slowly putting the bottles down and then getting out your phone not an option?

It was not an option. I needed a counter to set them down, or drop the glass on the pavement.

The other factor was their verbal and physical impatience. They could have sent only two guards, that would have been fine, they sent four and there were two more a little farther away. That's excessive, that's coercive. They look pissed, so they practice their faces that's part of it, I've seen private security make faces before especially in "Fuck the Law" psych wards. It is tied to their expectation that their demands (not orders, that implies some real authority) be obeyed.

So if an interrogator has tortured a hundred people he will be at some point a coercion magician, need only make a gesture or hint to get people to see in him that in his mind he intends to torture the sufferer, because that was true for a hundred people before. People can see it easily. So these guys expected, because they had in fact ganged up four-on-one when feeling brave, in this case six-on-one because they were feeling cowardly, talking to a lawyer about it they definitely YES kick people on the floor, maleteo as it's called, suit-casing. That's a real thing they definitely do all the time when nobody's looking. So that experience is imprinted in their face, movements and attitude when they order me, impolitely, and refuse to look at a receipt, to come back into the supermarket. So by reflecting in their attitude the experience of coercion and beatings, they communicated to me, unarguably, but in a way they think leaves no proof, that I either did exactly what they said right away or they would attack me.

Maybe that explains the lack of choice...but really I think it was the food was meant to be eaten with special thanks given to GOD for it. Small feast. That was the real reason I couldn't drop it, so I couldn't duke it out either, hence screaming. Those guards can suck it, obviously if they need to gang up six-on-one they're worthless fighters. It would have been my first sevensome.

> So phones? Not always a big help.

I don't understand how you came to this conclusion when you simultaneously say

> [Jessica] called my people, whom I couldn't reach because I left my phone at home

If you had a phone, you could've just...called them yourself.

Except no because the whole hands full and bottles thing. Did you even bother reading the comment?

I think this guy is a bot. Is it possible this comment was created using ML?

So in reply to the posters who said I could still have used a phone: I could not. I had an Apple iPhone of exactly the kind covered in the class-action lawsuit, of which there was one in Chile, and I was eligible for the payout, still am in fact, it's like 170 dollars. But I haven't.

So I left that one at home, and in fact one of the people who came grilled me over and over as we walked down Victoria Subercaseaux "why didn't you bring your phone?" "WHY DIDN'T YOU BRING YOUR PHONE?"

Well I told him I had a similar phone, just no radio, and was connecting to the Walmart subsidiary's wifi with it, explicitly ordering the guards for the password after the cashier, CE NEWEN according to the receipt, made her premeditated apology. But surprise, screaming worked. It actually worked better! It was much better for someone else to call on my behalf than for me to call myself. And secondly, too predictable, they can tear the phone out of your hands, these guards were in gang-up beating mode, so they would not have tolerated a phone, the obvious choice. Very impatient and there were six of them, apparently armed.

When I got home and received a call, the phone I was supposed to take, its battery died. So battery would have died calling people on my own behalf, when the battery dies unexpectedly, the battery meter acts weird, it's not like getting locked out, when it dies it's a brick, you can't call emergency services.

I couldn't slowly put anything on the ground, these guards were in Fuck the Law mode. Evidently, because they never had any interest in my receipt, or my testimony. Six, 6 guards, shepherding me coercively back to the Walmart subsidiary where they controlled all the cameras and knew the terrain, could make up any shit they wanted. And a lawyer that came, called Nacho, told me exactly that, these guys don't like calling police because they want that power for themselves.

The uniforms say SWAT on them, S-W-A-T, supposedly it's SWAT-branded private security apparel, nothing to do with American Special Weapons And Tactics like in the movies. Like Apple computer having nothing to do with apples, just a brandname, "nombre de fantasía", it's not like actual fruit. So they're trying to intimidate people with the power of the law, precisely so people don't dare defend themselves, to imply their victim will get accused resisting arrest.

> And I couldn't use a phone because my hands were full

Sorry, but you could have used a phone.

> but you really don't know what could happen at any given moment, and need to phone emergency services. This is not paranoia (well maybe it is), but paranoia doesn't work retroactively, you have to be proactively paranoid.

It would be nice to not live that way sometimes you know? There are places where people aren’t conditioned to feel that way.

You make it sound sinister like you’re expecting to be mugged, but I’ve called 911 on behalf of others by being the first to come across their roadside accident 2 different times in my life, and the first one wouldn’t have been able to call themselves due to injuries. Not having a phone would have meant leaving the scenes, driving to the next exit and finding a gas station or house, explaining there was an accident and pleading to use the phone, drawing out their time sitting injured on the roadside by several minutes before emergency services were even notified.

I’ve also been the first to report tree limbs blocking roads and a water main that burst to non-emergency lines, again expediting services to fix them and reducing inconvenience overall.

I’ve never felt like this was some conditioning of paranoia, only that I was enabled to help in ways that I wasn’t able to 20 years ago.

You could read his post as him living with constant threats of victimization (this is how I read your comment) but it applies equally well to medical emergencies. I happened to be in such a situation once and it was stressful enough with medical guidance on the phone and assurances that the ambulance was on its way

I will not risk to have to face such a situation alone or have to leave a person in distress just to call for help

You know, medical emergencies are a thing. You could always come across someone that needs help.

Freak attacks are a thing too. Dumb to go out without concealed gun.

I always bring my phone in case I'm in a traffic accident and need to call someone to pick me up or let them know I'm going to the hospital

I understand how annoying stalking on the HN forum must be — I have literally 1 question about YC application (it's NOT "Can you revise the whole thing?")

would be insanely forever grateful if you'd come down and talk to me NB my email is in profile

I'm not really blaming you here, this attidue is very normal these days, but a mere 25 years ago, most people had no cell phone, no mobile phone, and never, ever suffered mishap as a result.

(Inconvenience is not what I call a mishap)

I grew up in the country, and a few times had to walk 20 miles home, due to a dead car. Being a rural area, after 10pm, I might see 1 or 2 cars the entire walk home (4 hours and a bit).

During the day, there were times my car broke down, or I ran out of gas, so knocking on doors (a mile or so usually awake) was a better choice.

Often, a kind person would have some gas.

Compare this to ... the city. If you can yell loudly, literally thousands of people can hear you.

25 years ago there was a pay phone in every gas station, and in denser areas in every corner market, bus terminal, grocery store, hotel, ..., not mentioning those installed directly along the street.

Survivorship bias, it is totally a thing!

There are mountain tops that have cell service now days (great line of sight!). People get lost in the woods pretty often.

Heck just having a compass + map that works offline can get people unstuck. How many lost person stories used to end with "and he died just a few miles from the nearest town"?

Of course that sentence is now relegated to history because because almost everyone has a GPS in their pocket!

25 years ago, the cars also didn't have much crash safety compared to today and they did survive without seatbelts and airbags in metal cages without crumple zones, too!*

Hell, 80 years ago planes took off without any electronics and with high explosives on board, were shot at and even returned!*

* except for those who did not

Sure, most people didn't die because of lacking safety nets. But some did and I don't think "it worked for most without" is a sufficient argument to ditch them.

Nobody is unhappy for not having what he doesn’t know that he can have.

> the city. If you can yell loudly, literally thousands of people can hear you.

and roughly 1/3 of them will yell at you to shut up, half of the remaining will just silently wish it, with the remaining not noticing

> most people had no cell phone, no mobile phone, and never, ever suffered mishap as a result.

never???

How do you possibly have enough information to know that?!

>but a mere 25 years ago, most people had no cell phone, no mobile phone, and never, ever suffered mishap as a result.

But that just isn't true. Being able to use a mobile radio to summon emergency services earlier has statistically significant association with improved outcomes [0]. It isn't just about what happens to you, it's about what you can do for others you come across in emergencies. 25 years ago, I'd need to drive a minimum of 15-30 minutes to the nearest house and hope I was able to use their landline (or break in I guess?), or maybe there would be an open service station within that distance (often not). People died (still do) or suffer serious injury getting lost in the woods very close to home. I nearly did once in the 90s, cross country skiing and being foolish. I went out in the afternoon on a gray, gray overcast day, zero shadows, fresh snow, and as a skier since a child I felt overly confident and didn't take a normal fanny pack even with light (back then of course lamps were a lot crappier pre-LED), water or whatever. It got dark fast, by this point about 15°F, and I got completely, utterly confused. I knew I should be close and indeed reconstructing afterwards (finding my own tracks later in the week) I was within 1/2 mile or so. But it was a half mile through old forest without that clear trails. Fortunately I had had some outdoor training and recognized this was genuine trouble, I didn't try to go back in the woods but crossed a frozen swamp and broke for a farm field, and then from there to an actual house whose light I could see and use as a guide about a mile and a half away. Even if no one was home there'd at least be a road I could follow, fortunately there was someone and I could beg to use their landline and call a friend. But there were directions of travel I could have gone there with no one, and no road, for 6+ miles of mountainy forest. And if one succumbs to panic, it's easy to end up spending hours going in circles, or even without because sense of direction is hard with zero markers, no stars or the like. Or are fine, but fall and break a leg or something. This happens. People die. I and friends worked as First Responders and later mountain rescue volunteers of various levels. It's all well and good to say "well you should never do that" but humans are imperfect, even experienced ones. Having access to quite accurate near term weather forecasts alone is just massive, a boon a lot of us don't stop to appreciate.

Obviously, as tools cell phones have other risks. It's possible to get overconfident with them and take risks that negate the benefits. People have died due to silly things like literally stepping backwards over a cliff trying to get the perfect selfie. And there are other negative effects as this article talks about. Nevertheless, it's wrong to claim everything was fine back in "the good old days" when life expectancy was significantly lower [1]. You don't have to have a fancy smart phone to have a basic comms, GPS and map, but that doesn't negate how valuable those can be.

----

0: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22142669/

1: https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/life...

What do you imagine people 30 years ago did, during a time when crime was a lot worse?

A lot of them died, or suffered some horrible attack, unnecessarily. I don’t understand what the argument is here. We survived without antibiotics, but I sure wouldn’t like to have been seriously ill in a time without them.

They mostly just developed a much higher tolerance for risk. That doesn't mean you should choose a higher level of risk if you have the option.

There used to be quite a few pay-phones…

Well, not to be contraversial, but you could also try living life without a 'threat model' assessment to live by. That sounds very close to living in fear, and that sounds miserable.

This "threat model" assessment doesn't come into play if your habit is to have it with you at all times. It's like how you have your wallet with you so you don't fear not being able to afford a trip home; you only really start having to assess these threats when you don't have your phone/wallet with you. The phone and wallet is thusly liberating you from such fear.

I'm part of the new generation and I think the opposite. I am obsessed with my phone and the Internet. And I don't think it's bad. It's extremely stimulating in a way real life is orders of magnitude worse at. Point of reference, born around 2000. There's no going back for me. I want my phone at all times to have access to billions of possible thoughts, pictures, memes. It's literally a god like power.

I generally agree, but I would put it a little more neutrally:

I've setup my life so that I expect the people I care about to be able to reach me at any moment. It's something I desire. I don't want them to hold back telling me something important (or even something trivial). I've invested in the ability to be present (even in a limited way) at nearly all times. It's an enormous benefit to me and to the people I care about and I feel very strongly it's a valid way to live.

At the same time, I experience no discomfort with choosing to leave my phone at home. It's fine to have periods of focus on the circumstances that physically surround you. The same systems of contact I generally surround myself with make it easy for me to arrange periods of isolation.

The problems comes up when I am forced (by circumstance or by authority) to isolate myself in a way I don't consent to. That does feel uncomfortable and it should feel uncomfortable - not because humans should "naturally" live in some particular way - but because I am being stopped from living in a way that I want and causes no harm to any other being.

Edit: neutrally in the sense that I think this way of living was introduced to me by the era in which I live, but I don't think our era forces it on us. You can still live other ways, but I don't think we need to fall back on circumstance to justify it.

That's a great way of living! I like how you make yourself very available to the ones you love. Honestly you've inspired me to reprioritize who I spend my social energy on over the phone.

It is indeed unhealthy, and if you haven't experienced not being away from technology for some defined period of time, you won't realize it.

Age: 33. I use the phone compulsively, like the person in the article. I reach for it instinctively when standing still in line, or waiting for anything, or while eating, etc. I have done this increasingly in the past three years.

Two weeks ago I went to play trivia at a bar, hosted by a friend. I left my phone at home intentionally. For the first few minutes it was odd, just sitting there with a beer waiting for the game to start. And in between, I would watch other people, or doodle on my answer sheet, or just think about life.

Today, I went and got breakfast and coffee and read a book for about an hour at the cafe. There was a place for people to put sticky notes about how they're feeling - it made me think about that, and make a submission. I read literature and history around migration and people. I listened to the espresso machine. I watched the homeless man sitting on the corner and thought about it.

There is so _much_ for the mind to do, so many thoughts and experiences to process in the downtime without a device. For me, that often requires not just turning a phone on silent, but leaving it in the car or at home entirely. And it is truly freeing.

If you aren't joking about your opinion, as someone who has lived in both columns, please do an experiment like the OP article. Leave the phone at home for an hour or two a day, for several days within a month. Maybe just a weekday evening after work, or for a walk/drive/brunch one weekend.

The billions of thoughts and pictures and memes, if you are not joking, is useless when you wake up after a decade of accomplishing nothing of value to your own development or happiness or meatspace[1] interaction with the world.

[1]https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/meats...

Thanks for this. Your last paragraph was a good wake-up call. I was definitely exaggerating, and I fear exactly the scenario you laid out for my future. Aside from a minor Twitter obsession, I'm learning to use my phone far more like a tool than a companion. I've realized that even if content on the Internet is far better than whatever I make in real life, I'll only ever be satisfied by what I achieve.

It is an interesting perspective. My personal opinion is that this constant stimulation is costing me focus when I need to do work and ultimately hurts my capacity to do things. While the internet and computing is a strong power, it does not yet replaces our cognitive capabilities to solve problem and interact with others. I hope it never will!

I don't blame my phone or the internet for this. Before smart phones the joke was that people would procrastinate by cleaning their room or organizing their desk. It's not about the technology. When it's time to focus, focus.

Yeah but now it’s like organize millions of desks worth of distraction

Are you really being honest when you say you don't see this as bad? I couldn't help but peer into your comment history and notice you also talk about emptiness and loneliness. This, I think, is the price to pay for constant access to billions of possible thoughts, pictures and memes at all times.

Why is it that you think you need that?

You are right, I was being sarcastic there. It comes from a place of hurt because for me the Internet was the only substitute I had for many of the formative, stimulating relationships and experiences in real life that I've badly wanted to find in my youth.

You won't give your own mind space to be creative or think deeply if you're constantly getting microhits of novelty every 30 seconds.

This is why you put it in silent mode and check every couple hours. That has been my compromise on the issue.

I said the same thing as someone who just turned 30 and was one of the first generations born with the internet. Although I don’t mean to discourage your obsession with it, one of the most beautiful things in the world you can do is learn to think for yourself. Unplugging yourself from others opinions, thoughts, and picking up a book or two can help you start that journey.

Absolutely. I now spend most of my time creating content and trying to add to the conversation where I can.

You do counter yourself there by telling them to think for themselves and then pick up a book. Reading a book is the opposite of thinking for yourself

I think better inputs (books)mean better outputs (thoughts). Most people understood what I meant.

I recall a time, many years ago, when you could be at a pub with a couple of friends and some really obscure question like whether it's a duck who has a corkscrew willie or a woodchuck, and nobody would know the answer and there was no way to find out, barring going down to the threadbare and underfunded local library to look it up in the encyclopedia, which itself was terse on facts and probably omitted ones like that for morality's sake. Now I could just whip out the black mirror and Google it.

And which conversation was more fun? Heh. I still laugh with friends from college about the arguments we would get into about crazy facts.

Yep, that's exactly the question. All of this stuff is awesome when I'm trying to get a job done, but it peels a lot of the magic away from the world.

That's called addiction. Not as bad as other kind of addictions, sure, but still.

You sound serious.

> have access to billions of ... memes

But this is where I think maybe I'm getting trolled.

I think the younger generations may actually be able to pull off sarcasm on the internet.

you got me

* I don't think trolling or Poe's Satire is really proper on HN.

* Regardless, as stated above, the parent comment is believable despite its absurdity, which is the upsetting part either way.

I think the definition "an element of a culture or system of behaviour passed from one individual to another by imitation or other non-genetic means" can be taken, instead of "an image, video, piece of text, etc., typically humorous in nature, that is copied and spread rapidly by internet users, often with slight variations".

There will always be diversity of opinion, which is a beautiful thing. However, I reject the idea of it being a god-like power, unless it’s “unlimited cosmic power, itty-bitty living space” power.

There’s so much research already pointing towards our always-stimulated culture being a provably bad thing.

I think obsession with anything runs a very thin line towards being a bad thing.

There is a cost to this, and that is your ability to do deep thinking and deep work. You can’t do that if you need a dopamine spike every 30s. Boredom has value and letting your mind wander is important for problem solving and the creative process.

I agree, I mean I was born quite a long time earlier but in my career training I was taught to look for tools people can use for restoring energy, comfort, courage, and maintaining contact with long-term values via their interests.

This can also be especially important if you have other sensitivities that can lead to unwanted outcomes, which can be ameliorated more easily with a device nearby.

Also, IMO using "addiction" where "typically need to have this with me for different reasons" would work just fine is pretty inappropriate. The term projects quite a bit of subjective negative & clinical interpretation onto others which is a common ethical mistake, among other things.

I think addiction is perfect relevant for the majority of users. It's still a net win to have a phone, but they are addictive.

Any time you would like to stop doing something but are unable to because of a compulsion.... Is that not an addiction?

If you don't know what to do with your hands without a cigarette in them, almost anyone would call that a cigarette addiction.

Most people don't know what to do with their hands or mind without a phone. I sure don't.

> Any time you would like to stop doing something but are unable to

That's the thing. People call it addiction even when nobody ever said anything (see my comment) about that part. You are the one who added the bit about not being able to stop.

So, is it really fair to then project one's own fears or experiences with addiction, or beliefs about addiction, onto such a situation? That's better left to clinical territory, not casual relational discourse.

Poe's Law at work.

That seems really unhealthy. By your own admission, you are obsessed with it.

I'm almost 40 and I agree.

Phones being addictive or whatever is being massively overstated. Too many people projecting their own issues with social media and lack of impulse control onto others.

If you can't handle it, figure it out. But I'm sick and tired of people saying Facebook should be shut down or YouTube should be nationalized. I don't hear anyone saying M&Ms or cookies should be regulated.

To all of those who think cellphones r bad: You're an adult, start acting like one.

> I don't hear anyone saying M&Ms or cookies should be regulated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_food#Anti-junk_food_measu...

What kind of god, though? What are you missing that only exists in meat space?

When you get older you might grow bored of the virtual stimulation trapped inside a screen.

Literally all of human knowledge.

In this community we tend to overestimate just how much knowledge is found on the internet because essentially everything to do with tech happens here. In the bigger picture, even if you restrict yourself to only intellectual knowledge, there are entire fields that are extremely poorly documented on the internet. Either information isn't there at all, or the information that is readily accessible is plain wrong.

Further, if you consider human experience to be part and parcel with human knowledge, the internet starts to look like a rather hollow shell. Just because you can read huge portions of the body of human literature doesn't mean you're in a position to understand what those authors were saying, and the more you isolate yourself from the physical world the more detached you'll be from their experiences.

This isn't to downplay how much knowledge there is to be found here. It's just that to say that it has "literally all" knowledge or conveys "literally god-like powers" is over the top. I'd normally leave such hyperbole alone, but in a thread that is glorifying smartphones as the savior of mankind I feel it's important to point out that what we have in a smartphone isn't all that it's being made out to be.

Sure, but it seems aspirational at best to say "I love having my phone on me at all times because with it, I can access all of human knowledge" while really using your phone all day to procrastinate your goals, waste time on TikTok, and never actually tap into that knowledge except for the rare Wikipedia search.

Kind of a "...but I always can if I want to!" cope.

That said, I was similar to the thread OP in my early 20s when it came to my computer time. I spent all day on the computer which was totally cool because of all the things I could do on it, even though I was addicted to Warcraft or Diablo or whatever. And it took 10 years to admit it and find a healthier relationship with it.

Isn't it possible that someone has discovered something and not uploaded it to the internet?

And all human misinformation.

I think it's a matter of age perspective. In 20 more years the device will have an exponentially less information that you need to thrive, because now a lot of that knowledge and wisdom is in your head. The device loses a lot of it's value to you personally then, but doesn't mean the device is useless for everyone.

> I want my phone at all times to have access to billions of possible thoughts, pictures, memes. It's literally a god like power.

Race to the bottom of the garbage pile.

Don't worry, you'll get bored of it just like the rest of us who hit 30. Except we did it with desktops/laptops and not mobile phones.

You're right, I'm honestly already bored. The only 2 things I care about on the Internet now are original ideas/art and cool people to connect with.

I really desire the feeling that I’m disconnected from the matrix for a little while.

Leaving my phone at home, and foregoing all my other digital tools really makes me feel like it’s just me and my immediate surroundings I’m paying attention to.

Trust me, there are also plenty millennials, gen-x and boomers hooked on the internet and their phones as well. Plenty.

My phone screen was cracked, I had to leave it with the repair place for an hour or two. It was glorious.

I leisurely strolled past shops, sat down to eat something without being distracted, and generally enjoyed being outside. I had to ask someone for the time.

I resolved to go without phones more often, as it made me feel connected to me environment more, with less stress and reduced absentmindedness.

Of course I never did and promptly returned to my 4+ hrs/day of phone time. I am not ashamed to admit I feel somewhat uncomfortable pooping without my phone.

My advice: get a watch. A nice Seiko, Citizen, etc dumb watch.

I found myself always pulling my phone out to check the time, then getting sucked in by notifications.

Now, I only use my watch to check the time, and find myself pulling my phone out way, way less in public.

I pretty much just know what time it is within about a quarter-hour. I stopped wearing a watch when I realized that.

Nah, let's go further and start a ring sundial fad: https://www.amazon.com/Retroworks-Sundial-Ring-Silver-Finish...

I'll provide counter example

I didn't use smartphone till very late 2021

now I enjoy going for 1-2h walks waaay more cuz I can just listen to music and disconnect myself from the people around and focus on thinking about various stuff

Sure sitting at train and thinking about your life instead of spamming on HN is likely a good thing, but sometimes it's just awkward - depends who you sit with

You know we had ways to listen to music on the go in the pre-smartphone era, right? From Walkman, Discman over to mobile MP3 players etc.

I have feature phone I use to disconnect, it can play music plus I have a list of 10 close contacts that I can call in case of emergency (or 911 of course). There is no need for a smartphone to cover basic security needs.

pooping with phone now. now and then i try pooping without it just in the interest of time. and saving my legs from falling asleep. not often though. bad habit.

I went to a week long workshop on a farm. Part of the workshop was a ban on all electronics.

Initially it was really uncomfortable not having my phone but after 3 days I got used to it. It was incredible. I started doing things like waking up and drinking a coffee while just looking at the scenery. I actually did nothing and got calm peace.

At the end of the end of the week, I found almost nothing important in the hundreds of missed notifications I had.

It was a really interesting experience. I now try to leave my phone on a charger in another room when I'm home.

Maybe try just having notifications for things that _are_ important? If you've got "hundreds" of missed notifications after a week, you're clearly not vetting those notifications at the source.

Or better yet, just disable notifications.

Our phones are a great tool, and we don't have to be a slave to them, nor do we have to get rid of them entirely to free ourselves from being slaves to them.

I’ll read the article but I’ll admit that my first reaction to this was… do they know how folks use their phone? My phone is my entire wallet now, in every way. Wether flying the country (boarding passes, I have clear), or purchasing something (I nearly exclusively use Apple Pay) I’ve long left behind needing to carry a proper wallet. I do make sure to carry a couple of $20s just in case there is some oddball reason my situation wouldn’t work. I also have no reason to carry an ID, but that’s also about to live in your phone.

Maybe the title just comment baited me though.

Edit: read it and this speaks more to the unhealthy obsession with the perceived importance of instant communication. You should delete or turn these apps off whenever you can. Turning off notifications can also be empowering.

While you won't be flying anywhere, I think in for some purposes you should be able to feel comfortable leaving home even without money or an ID. I think it's sad that our world is so entirely consumed by bureaucracy and capital that we feel uncomfortable existing, for even a brief period, just as ourselves, rather than numbers in a bank account or a government database.

What country does not require you to carry an id at all times where outside your house? Most countries do and most don't even accept alternate id's like driver's license.

The United States I guess. If I were to be buying alcohol it’s reasonable for them to ask. But that’s not something I often do anymore and generally there isn’t a reason anyone would ask for my id otherwise. Perhaps if I’m in a different state (I do still travel with a form of ID, but not on my person) it could be important. My limited experience with cops where I live have also indicated it isn’t important.

I don’t drive either which is a much bigger drive as to why I don’t feel the need to constantly have official identification.

Edit: I suppose it is important if anything “went wrong” and I needed my body to be identified, but again, that would be a case where people are wondering where I’m at quite quickly and the cops likely putting something out to identify such a person.

Edit 2: I also did try to get a state ID but they make the process so laughably difficult that getting a passport was easier - further, they don’t accept a passport as a main source of identification. I instead needed to also have a physical copy of my social security card (despite the other mountain of evidence I brought about my existence and propriety living in the state) and I never quite understood that. They do gladly accept the taxes I pay though. No questions asked!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... Lots of countries don't even require citizens to own some special id card.

In my case (Austria, EU), when the police is required to check your identity, and if you aren't carrying some allowed form of identification (id card [most people don't have one around here, no one needs it but it costs as much as renewing your passport], passport [who carries their passport around, might even be expired], drivers license [you might not have one]) they have to follow you home or wherever an recognized identity document of yours may be (e.g. some people store them at a safe deposit box at a bank).

New Zealand for one. You don't need to carry an ID at all times, only if you're driving do you need your driver's license. However, if you're detained by the police you are required to identify yourself, but this does not need involve your physical ID.

Is it really common in other countries that you legally need your ID on you at all times?

The US has no requirement to carry your ID. I'm not sure there's any base requirement to have ID.

You only need your driver's license if you're driving, and ID in general is only required for certain activities that directly require identification or use the ID to confirm other information (eg age when buying alcohol).

In the US there is no such requirement. An ID is only needed to buy restricted products/substances (alcohol, certain medications, guns), to drive, to vote, or similar: cases where you either need to prove who you are or prove how old you are.

The Wikipedia article on the subject[0] is incomplete, but the only countries whose laws it specifically describes (Germany & Sweden) do not require carrying the ID with you. Rather than it being the norm to require ID, I'm having a very hard time finding out any countries that do require it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obligation_of_identification

The UK doesn't even have a national ID, The US would be at war if that was the requirement and here in Denmark I can have my drivers license as an app.

I didn't know that there were countries that required that. Can you give me a few examples?

What country does not require you to carry an id at all times where outside your house?

Sweden doesn't for one.

A markedly-incomplete list of a few countries that do not require you to carry an ID outside your home:

Australia, Austria, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States.

I'm not sure if anyone on HN lives in any of those countries, though. I know I'm a Russian disinformation worker, and I assume everyone else is, too.

is it even enforced?

my country "requires" it, but I never have my id with me unless I need it e.g going to gov office

Being forced to pay for council parking in the UK using a mobile app is completely astonishing to me, and leaving home without your mobile, or no data or a broken phone can cause you a world of difficulties.

I didn't agree to wanting to normalise the removal of parking meters and mandatory app usage just to park your car in a park or highsteet. I'm not sure where this motivation started.

Was there literally no alternative? Round these parts you can pay in cash (with no change given). I've heard people complain they were forced to use the app when they just didn't have any cash.

(I have to be aware of the alternatives because I don't have a smartphone. It's not been an insurmountable problem yet.)

No alternatives and here's the Councils announcement: https://www.richmond.gov.uk/services/parking/parking_machine...

Some have extended to non-residential areas. One of the biggest parking apps says this:

Q: "I have no network coverage and need to park?"

A: "Move quickly to an area with better network coverage and complete your parking transaction with PayByPhone... Pay for your parking via other methods such as PayPoint or via the Pay & Display machine where available"

Reference: https://support.paybyphone.co.uk/hc/en-gb/articles/360010478...

FYI 'Pay and Display' are the parking meters being removed, 'PayPoint' might be in SOME convenience stores/shops. But if you know London these can be 20-30 mins walk or none there are all at your parking destination. Good luck attending an appointment during work lunch times!

Similarly, I went out to dinner Friday and could not scan the QR code to view the menu because I decided to leave my phone in the car. I asked for a a physical menu and was told they literally do not have them anymore. Had to hunch over my friend's phone instead.

This is mostly regional in my experience in Atlanta: everyone moved back to paper/laminated menus ASAP, as soon as any concerns for covid on objects were alleviated. Only a few businesses took it as an opportunity to save the manager the workflow of needing to print out and prepare physical menus.

at least individual spot meters were reduced to block meters so that there was less physical infrastructure to maintain.

in my city part of the motivation is data collection; rates are adjusted block by block based on the last quarter's occupancy relative to targets, and among other things the app nudges people towards slightly less optimal parking spots that are either cheaper or more available.

This data collection doesn't require a smartphone to pay, though.

In the US, you already need a phone to charge an EV (of course, the EV has a cell modem anyway, and license plate tracking cameras are becoming ubiquitous too...)

If you have to have a phone to pay for things like parking or for proof of vaccination status, then you have to carry a locator beacon that can be tracked, and your movements can be recorded. Who records them (Google, Apple, someone else) is irrelevant; the record can be requisitioned by your government or a Five Eyes partner at the touch of a few buttons. Your locator beacon comes with handy built-in cameras and microphones, and it probably has speech-to-text capability on chip if you have a recent model. Also it's reading your mail and texts and encrypted chats, and you browse the web on it, so it potentially knows a lot about you. Good thing you can trust it not to spy on you.

You can carry a phone and leave it turned off most of the time. Unless you're paying only in cash, your electronic payments can be traced anyway

It's way more efficient on a number of levels.

I'm unconvinced by this.

I keep all my "on the go" stuff (keys, money, water, some important documents, etc) in a bag, and I almost always keep that bag on me, wherever I go, even if I don't think I'm actually going to need all that stuff. For example, if I go to a friend's house, and we go for a walk, I don't really need that stuff, but my instinct is to take the bag anyway. At this point, it's such an ingrained habit that I feel uncomfortable going somewhere without the bag (something my wife mocks me for occasionally).

Is that bad? I don't think so. It's a tactic that I've cultivated because otherwise I know I'm going forget something that I need. I might not need everything in that bag, but if I'm out of the house, I'm probably going to need at least something in there. And taking the stuff I don't need has also paid off when I end up changing my plans or something.

For me, it's the same with my phone. My phone is my main point of contact to my wife and family, it handles navigation and public transport, it answers questions I have while out and about, and it's also an entertainment system on the way. Not having it makes my life worse and harder. As a result, it's another thing that I always try and keep on me.

Obviously there are some situations where it makes sense for me for leave my bag or my phone at home. But in those situations, I'm going to feel slightly uncomfortable because it's interrupting my routine, and that routine is there for very good reason.

I think there is a difference between being thrown off by your routine (I have the same feeling if I’m not carrying my wallet or keys with me) and being “addicted” (for lack of a better word) to your phone and going into withdrawal - the number of situations I’m constantly in where people are incapable of being “present” because they are on their phones is depressing and astonishing

Sure, I guess it ultimately comes down to what specifically the author finds uncomfortable about not having their phone. But I think this narrative of addiction (and the implication that people should be comfortable leaving possibly the most powerful tool that have at their disposal at home) largely feels like fear-mongering.

For example, you talk about people being incapable of being present - this seems very far from my experience. I know a couple of people who might check their phone obsessively, or will get distracted looking something up, but generally most people that I hang out with show no signs of difficulty engaging with something - work, a game, a conversation - for long periods of time. That's not to say that carrying around a portable endorphin generator doesn't have its own risks and complexities, but overall, this techno-nihilistic narrative of addiction and incapability rings quite false to me.

There’s a whole subculture of people who put together ‘Get Home Bags’ in case their car breaks down or some other unforeseen event requires they hoof it. It’s probably not a bad idea.

I held off getting a smartphone until 2011. But I certainly experienced this sort of discomfort without my dumb phone and various other bits of paraphernalia like a bus route map, bus schedules, a Thomas Guide map book (or AAA map once I moved to NM), lists of emergency and nonemergency contacts, medical info, todo and shopping lists, and probably a few things I'm forgetting. Most of this has been subsumed by the smartphone, in a smaller, more convenient package with better ergonomics. Battery life has improved to the point that I no longer bother with an external battery pack, unless there is overnight travel involved.

I'm pretty draconian about controlling notifications, and try to use the smartphone as a tool rather than a content consumption device (an eink ebook reader has replaced my habitual paperback book, both at home and on the go).

But as a tool, an occasion for the smartphone's absence is definitely cause for discomfort. OTOH, there are physical tools I don't bother to carry anymore (eg. a swiss army knife) that haven't been replaced with anything.

I think it's fine to be uncomfortable without your phone. It's understandable: they do so many useful things.

However, it turns out what this post is really about is work communication, not about the functionality of phones that enhance our lives.

When you're trying to get friends together, find a nice place to eat, and get directions to meet up, having a phone is far better than not having one. I wouldn't want to be without a phone during a car crash or medical emergency, either.

In contrast, when it comes to your employer's demands on you, the phone isn't so nice to have around, is it?

My suggestion is to set notification boundaries for work-based communication and always be looking for opportunities to leave employers that violate the boundaries in your life.

Just have a separate work phone and leave that at home. It's better for a lot of other reasons too regarding you controlling your phone instead of your employer.

> I think it's fine to be uncomfortable without your phone. It's understandable: they do so many useful things.

The problem is that you can't take what's in your phone and have it somewhere else: for example a web-browser in a public space like a library or an internet cafe. If that were possible, then it would be less of a problem to leave your phone at home.

To everyone in this thread, wanting work and home separation.

If you're doing well in tech, then you have cash to enable options. One is, a dual sim phone, and your work sim goes off at 5pm.

The same goes for fetching work email. Off at 5pm.

Loads of apps to help with this.

Without dual sim, there are voip forwarders, a second phone, loads of options.

I was on holiday once with my friends in Amsterdam. After a few too many drinks and committing a sin and having a wee in the canal (sorry! When a man's gotta go he's gotta go - as an aside what's it with bars, clubs & fast food chains there etc. charging to use the toilet?!) a guy came up to me and started talking to me, can't really remember what he said to me, all I remember is checking my pocket and my new OnePlus 3t phone had disappeared. Karma I suppose.

We had another leg of the holiday in Finland (Helsinki) and then back to Amsterdam again for another day before returning to the UK. It was painful where all my friends had their phones and could take pictures etc. and I couldn't.

I couldn't even borrow a friend's phone to check emails/Facebook etc. as I'm security conscious and have 2FA enabled on all my accounts, and use a password manager with generated passwords also. My less technically inclined friends called me an idiot.

Thankfully when I got back to the UK I was able to get a replacement SIM card the next day from the network provider's store and I had an older Android phone to use for the time being and was able to go through the Authy SMS recovery process to get my 2FA codes back.

I've taken to trying to have a spare blank SIM and old phone with me. The last time I activated a phone I was dumb and left the old one at home on an hour trip. I went through all my accounts and just barely got my stuff to activate on my new phone without my old one. Also pointed out flaws in my 2fa setup, but hey.

> But as time passed, I realized how our phone has become a real integral part of our bodies. It was a strange feeling.

I'm hardly a luddite and yet I don't give a crap about my phone.

I hardly ever take my phone with me: no need. Yesterday I had to drive to some unknown (to me) place (rural area) for a birthday party: wrote the address down, looked what the place looked like on google maps, then left the home and input the address in my car's navi system.

My phone is so old I don't even know which model it is. I think it's a Samsung S7, not sure. Don't care.

I have like two apps on it: google authenticator and some "scan to pdf" thing (where I take a picture of documents and it makes a PDF out of it).

To me a phone is an inferior, mediocre, computing device. It's only a "computer" in that it's more powerful than, say, a SGI workstation from the late 90s (or whatever) but it's mostly a piece of crap made to consume content.

I'm always wondering this: how many chip engineers are actually designing chips from their smartphone? How many car designers are modelling cars and parts on their phone? How many sound engineers are, say, remastering some great song from their phone? How many people who worked on, say, "Fantastic Beasts" did model the 3D animals from their phone? It's not just the input that sucks, but the output too: tiny screen, shitty sound.

In addition to being complete turds, phones are little surveillance devices tracking your every moves. Just screw that.

Now, funnily enough, the only time I really need a phone the dumbphone, pre- Nokia Symbian and J2ME apps (these were still dumb but a bit less dumb), I had in the late nineties would do: actual phone calls and SMS. I hardly need anything more.

I don't respect my phone: I treat it for the utter piece of junk and crap it is.

I think it's a sane approach. YMMV.

This uncomfortable feeling though was just because it wasn't in your pants, providing a specific sensory input you are used to, not because "oh no! I need Twitter!". One has the same feeling about objects like wallets and keys.

I have carried a shoulder bag since I was a kid, before I had ever even used the Internet. Recently, indirectly due to the pandemic, I have stopped using my shoulder bag very much... I am constantly freaked out by its lack.

I haven't worn a watch in decades: I used to wear a watch only when I was a kid, and I stopped in college. And yet, to do this day--not often! maybe once a year, tops--I will suddenly have this visceral feeling "I lost my watch".

I have worn the same jacket for the past four years. This jacket puts a bit of weight on the back of my neck. I recently went out for a whole day wearing a hoodie and I kept feeling confused as "I am not wearing my jacket".

FWIW, I keep notifications off on my phone at all times. I think the entire idea that I can be randomly interrupted insane. I thereby often just disappear from being able to be contacted by anyone for a day because "I was having fun".

And yet, if I don't know where my phone is, I start freaking out... not because "I need my fix", but because it is an expensive object that has a lot of personal data on it and (as mine are old/jailbroken) might not even be replaceable.

I thereby disagree with the idea here: your phone is simply a tool, and it is probably one of the most powerful tools you have ever owned. The feeling of making it part of yourself is extremely human: we love to build and use tools.

What isn't reasonable is one way you have chosen to use that tool, but that's entirely unrelated to the very normal feelings you have when you suddenly don't have it in your pocket: move it to your other pocket and you will also feel bad.

Just think: your phone is also a clock, a map (compete with GPS and compass), a camera (photo and video), a calculator, a tricorder, and the hitchhicker's guide to the galaxy all at once... what a shame to feel you can't carry one.

I feel uncomfortable leaving without my phone, for one simple reason: I’m typically leaving with my pup, and if anything happens to either of us I want to be able to call for help. Pay phones are basically non-existent, people understandably don’t like to let strangers use their phone. It’s just a basic precaution.

The loss of pay phones over the last 20 years is a loss to society. We used to have widespread access to cheap and anonymous emergency calling.

I lived to my mid-30s before I ever carried a mobile phone. In that time I do not recall ever needing to call 911 on a pay phone. How often has a mobile phone helped you in an emergency? For me, never. I think this is one of those easy-to-imagine-but-in-reality-rarely-happens justifications.

The local university here has these emergency call-for-help stations all over campus. They have a blue light on top so they are easy to find especially at night. A couple of years ago there was a little feature story in the newspaper about how they had never--not once--been used in a real emergency. But the university did not want to take them down because they provided a feeling of security.

No one used pay phones for anything other than a public toilet for half a decade. Good riddance.

I have had this same thought in the past. I came to the conclusions that it’s a psychological trick we’re playing on ourselves. The mitigation against such a low risk event is not worth the price we’re paying.

- sent from my iPhone

I mean, what price? It’s just a little extra weight in my pocket. I’m not using it while I walk my pup. It’s always on silent and I seldom notice the occasional buzz.

- Sent from my iPhone, on my porch

This is so true!

> people understandably don’t like to let strangers use their phone

Sounds like you're projecting here. What's your data for this?

I've definitely had this problem. There were times I lost my phone and had to get back home. No one would let me use their phone. It was not until I begged a gas station attendant to let me call someone I knew who could pick me up, that I was able to get home.

Only anecdata, but I’ve experienced it directly, and I’ve also helped other people out when I saw them experiencing the same. I’m a little surprised by this response to be honest?

I have found smartwatches a good for this purposes. With cellular connectivity you have emergency services, calls, certain notifications, maps, and NFC payments. You cant procrastinate on it as easily as with a phone.

Many in this thread suggest a feature phone. Anecdotally, a friend of mine went this route, but people became suspicious of him. Especially when meeting new people. His dates thought he was cheating on his (non-existent) wife, or that he was hiding something in more general sense. He returned to having a smartphone after a year or so with a feature phone.

I think it's interesting how everyone is addicted to their phones nowadays. I'm a computer guy but I am 100% not addicted to my phone, I really don't get the appeal. I do have an Android phone, but I mainly use it as mp3-player/GPS/phone, it clearly beats carrying / charging separate phone, mp3 player, gps device etc.

But aside from that I have always thought that smartphones utterly suck, the awful OS and proprietary nature of the hardware, also the core design is fundamentally flawed, using a touchscreen for both input and display means the interface has no texture or haptic feedback, and also your fingers are covering the display. They are extremely awkward and slow to use. Theyre not even a good shape to fit in a human hand for crying out loud! So I just use my smartphone as much I would have used those devices it has replaced. I just really dont want to use it any more than necessary as it's so awful.

Smartphones are like those "leatherman" tools, I call them do-everything-badly-devices. Its handy to carry a leatherman rather than always carry seperate pliers/screwdrivers/knife etc. but you really dont want to be using it if a real tool is available.

It is normal to feel uncomfortable without a phone and it should be!

Leaving my home without my phone means I can't easily get in contact with my friends I'm trying to meet because there is no way to coordinate. Sure we used to coordinate before phones but that's no longer the case and when it was the case it meant waiting for 20-30 minutes if someone was late because there was no way for them to tell you if and when they were actually going to arrive.

It also means I can't pay for things. My phone is now my wallet for all intents and purposes.

My phone is my car key so I can't get back into my car. I'm sure for some it's their house key.

My phone is my navigator. I know my way around the city but regardless of where I am I can search for restaurants, groceries store, and their hours. All things I do often. Without the phone what I'm supposed to do? Find a phone booth, look in the yellow pages, and then try to figure out of the address listed is close to where I am?

It's completely reasonable to feel uncomfortable without leaving your house without keys, without money, without a way to call someone in an emergency, without a way to contact your friends and family, without a way to coordinate with others.

I live in Montana where jobs are almost impossible to find. Without phones, my life would be a lot worse. I would have no opportunities but Burger King, or I would have to always stay in front of a computer, because my response time expectations are about 10 minutes at the most, for around 12 hours a day.

But beyond that, phones give me access to things you normally have to be born with, or spend years learning with specialists. I can go for a walk, wander down a side street if there's something I'd like to see, all in full confidence that I won't get seriously lost.

Thanks to phones, I have access to reliable memories without having to carry pen and paper, and either manually back it up or risk losing everything if the paper is gone. I can make plans for a week from now, and access those plans without needing to be at home with a datebook.

I also have Tile tracking on my keys and wallet, which has saved me several times.

Which is why I hate the Kacynzsky types so much, and why I don't want privacy absolutism to take over tech, without being balanced by some effort to make sure we don't have to go back to getting lost without keys, directions, or memories.

They are horrifically addictive, to the point of most of my hobbies having since turned into "Everyone look at a phone clubs", and it being very very hard to read books or focus on anything at all, for pretty much everyone, but it sure seems a lot more fun than being constantly lost and unable to keep up with society, endlessly screamed at for forgetting things.

Something must be done about it, before we have no culture, no friendships, and even pets become disposable Instagram props, but to go back to having no phones at all would really cause trouble for a lot of people, who are currently elevated far beyond their true base level of functionality by this tech.

Replace the word “phone” with “car” and see if this article still makes sense.

Sorry, but what is considered “essential” is subject to change. History has seen these shifts in every generation, and clinging to the previous generation’s notions of what is considered essential is just romanticism.

Possibly unpopular take: it does. Cars should not be required for everyone, especially those living in a city. It's never going to be sustainable, and it wastes resources, and many people don't like driving, especially in heavy traffic.

Moreover, it is fundamentally unsustainable financially. Cars should continue to exist the same way phones and computers should, but not everyone should _have to_ own or use them _all_ the time.

https://www.strongtowns.org/

I've gotten used to having my phone on silent and most notifications turned off. I leave text and phone notifications on so I can see them on the lock screen when I decide to look at the phone.

For moments when I actually need to be aware of any communications or be in sync with family and friends, I can turn on the ringer or turn on specific notifications.

I think this has helped me get away from the constant distraction but keeps the utility of the phone near. It annoys me when, during conversations, people constantly check their phone and smart watch every few minutes because of the buzz in their pocket or their wrist.

I have also found going on weekend backpacking trips has weaned me off of the phone and technology in general. I would recommend it for those looking to take a break.

I sometimes wonder if better management of notifications would improve people's lives.

I don't have any audible notification for email and a range of other things. I'm pretty ruthless about turning off notifications that come with some games and other apps that I just don't care about.

> I realized how our phone has become a real integral part of our bodies.

Counter-example. Having only just recently had the ability to do payments with my phone, I now often go out without my wallet in my pocket. The feeling of not having my wallet made me realise how my wallet was an integral part of my body - so to speak.

I don't think it's healthy or normal to feel uncomfortable without a communications device. It's a sign of dependency. One should be able to put it out of mind and focus on deep tasks, leisure, interpersonal commitments and general real-life living without a neurotic impulse to check and inhabit a digital world.

I don't have a smartphone (prefer a landline but keep an old Nokia around too), so my life is more organised around emails and desktop based communication. I recognised back in the 90s that it used to take me hours to "decompress" from tech immersion. I would ruminate on what messages I might be missing, and think through communications in my mind in a quite obsessive way.

That was over 20 years ago. These days I'll go for a couple of days without thinking about the internet. I can happily live without a phone for a week or more no worries, and frequently do.

It's a long journey and there are constant pressures and temptations to over-use again. I wrote a book about coping with that.

It probably sounds as if I'm talking like a cognitive behavioural therapist. That's because I truly believe that smartphone use is fully congruent with addictive behaviours - not just for a few people, as was common thinking a few years ago, but for everybody, and as mounting scientific evidence supports there are numerous genuine harms both individual and societal [1]. In 2022 I no longer feel alone or unusual in this regard, because I see the world is waking up to it.

The question then is how we raise awareness of this emerging threat to mental wellbeing, and how we deal with it. Mobile technology certainly has its uses, but we must balance that with social/technological structures that give people ample space to control their own technology, make space and abstain from it as desired. A truly advanced technological society would meet this need. At present the gushing convergence on smartphones as "necessary" panacea is pathological in the extreme, and I am sure, simply fuelled by the profits of the tech industry rather than any underlying "need". Technology is becoming what is being _done_ to us.

[1] No I won't. Please have the good manners to Google for yourself (or go back through my many well refernced posts here).

That's nice and all, but when I travel overseas having a universal translator with me is super cool.

Being able to order a safe reliable taxi in most major cities, also super cool.

If you don't want email on your phone, don't set it up. But having a map that redirects me around traffic accidents in real time saves me a lot of time.

I'm not going to argue against smartphones being horrible little dopamine boxes, because they are, but you can get a smartphone and set it up as a purely utilitarian device rather easily.

> purely utilitarian device

You're absolutely right kid. Sincerely. I look forward to the day when the real utility shines through again. And I come from a time (as a now well bearded computer nerd) when it was all utility and coolness.

But we're in some weird in-between days [1] where motivations have gotten distorted, ideals have got lost, and the utility just isn't enough any more to stave of the wrongness.

FWIW I'm an optimist and beleieve we'll make it through and take back tech, but right now we need to take a long look at this.

[1] The fancy word is "interregnum" - a period "caught between two times, one world that is already dead, and the other waiting to be born."

It's for emergencies too. I've had to call 911 before. I also want to immediately know if my wife or kids are in trouble. This is not unreasonable.

> I realized how our phone has become a real integral part of our bodies

Almost: my phone shows my blood sugar level. Thus it's always in Bluetooth range.

Here's a very short review of the Dexcom G6 doing the actual measurement: the medical device is absolutely awesome, the mobile app / website / APIs are the most god awful thing I had the bad luck to work with in my three decades of using the web.

In my…not too old, but not young years I am finding that I will quite often forget my phone at home. I find this to be of almost no consequence. I still carry a “wallet”, which is really just a stack of few cards. I live in a city, so if I really needed some info or had to make an emergency call I would just ask a neighbor (most people in my neighborhood are super nice). Most importantly, when I stop for a drink at a bar or I am at the playground with the kids I am forced, and this is a good thing, to not be checking social media/news aggregators/email.

I don’t think I could do without it during business hours because of the nature of my work, but it’s certainly fine for me to go without off hours.

Side note, I recently had a bunch of cash on hand for some reason. It is super convenient to grab a beer and just throw down a bill instead of waiting for a check. Digital pay services are great when splitting a check and are nsuper helpful when you are out of cash, but remember that cash, almost always*, works.

Posts on this specific topic should raise our curiosity in more active ways than just the technologists vs luddites talking points it usually devolves into. First, we should admit that we dont actually know what the effects of this technology is on our minds and how it shapes the way we perceive. There are niche fields of academia such as Media studies, specifically, Media ecology, that study these subjects. That being said, we should experiment, find out, by taking a break from your device(s) of choice for some set amount of time, and observe how your mind reacts. This will be varying degrees of absurd based on your location. If you work in tech and live in sfba for example, its likely not even conceivable let alone feasible. The takeaway, for both people who agree with the OPs insight or for those who think the point is overblown or out of context, being that it is our own responsibility to understand the effects of our environment.

I liked that reflection. I’m lucky enough that my manager is very intentional in actively avoiding and mitigating any possible work related anything during the weekends.

When I get a call (as opposed to a slack message) it’s only because something is REALLY on fire.

This really allows me to disconnect completely from work with the assurance that in an extreme situation I could still be reached.

It’s also important to clarify what is considered important because honestly I get a call over the weekend to implement so “quick feature”, that would be a clear signal that it might be time to part ways with such company culture.

All I’m saying is, it starts with the individual marking the boundaries and then either talking the the manager or finding a place that respects those boundaries.

(I’m aware of some violations of boundaries from bosses that if they’d happen to me I’d likely seek for a restraining order!)

The phone is now an extension of the self. It’s hard to just leave it without becoming an anxious mess. The only way I was able to break that addiction was when I bought a new Google Pixel that had a battery defect that forced it to drain itself each day. I got so used to the phone doing this that at a certain point I just carried around a dead phone. After awhile enough, I just left the phone at home.

Soon much of my life started to feel more full. I’d get lost in a big city like Montreal and have to ask for directions in a language I don’t know. I’d lose touch with coworkers who wanted to go out at night and I’d randomly stumble into them. So much serendipity happens because I didn’t have my phone. Although I only have anecdotes of my experience, I think Nick Carr talks about these challenges in depth with his book “The Shallows”.

Disconnecting from work should be fine. That's a boundary most should have outside of high stakes life and death jobs. Even then, coverage by more than one person should be warranted, and paid for.

Personal phone? That's my lifeline to civilization if something bad happens. Also an AV capture device.

It's now abnormal to not have a phone handy. I was once reading a paperback book in a restaurant while waiting for my meal, and some woman approached me and started talking about ebooks. If you're sitting someplace in public and not looking at a phone, it's suspicious behavior.

I went without a phone or social media for like half a year and people legitimately thought I died or something

Haha

I wouldn't leave the house without my wallet and my phone is vastly more useful and important than my wallet in most cases. I would rightly feel uncomfortable without either and be glad that I did! That way I'd notice and go back and get them (or decide consciously I don't need them at the moment).

As for feeling "uncomfortable" without something on your body that is almost always on your body, the same is true of an almost endless list of items. Jewelry, clothes, lotion, facial hair, piercings, makeup, keys, watch, wallet. I recall the feeling I'd get when a car would vibrate just the right way and make me think my pager was going off, years past when I had last owned a pager.

This is what meditation is about, but replace "phones" with "everything"!

Underrated comment

I've never put anything work-related on my personal devices[1]. If anyone sends me a Slack message or an email on Friday night, I won't see it until Monday morning. If you need to reach me outside of work hours, you can give me a phone call and talk to me personally about what's so urgent that you feel the need to impinge on my personal time.

[1] Well okay, except 2FA, because I couldn't make it through new hire orientation without doing that. But now all the auth uses security elements integrated into or attached to the laptop itself, so maybe it's time to uninstall the work 2FA stuff.

After reading the title to my wife she quickly said most likely a man wrote this article, possibly an older gentleman.

As a female having a phone at all times makes her feel more comfortable for emergency use.

I wrote the article. I am 19. Trust me I really love to do things like these which have chances to promote a good behavior. For the same reasons, I am off of Instagram for a year now (believe it or not, I think this would be really difficult for the current generation).

My wife has, off and on for decades, called me and said she was waking somewhere she didn't feel safe or was being watched and wanted to be on the phone. All you said sounded familiar. However, the "phone for safety" trope is a sad thing.

This is why I like my smart watch. I can walk out of the house without my phone and still stay in touch if it’s really needed (it usually isn’t) - I also like that I can triage notifications without touching my phone, if I try doing that with my phone I usually end up messing around with a lot more than I had originally planned. Also using it for music and having the assistant available fills out the main uses of my watch.

The only time I regret it is if there is something that i’d really like to photograph.

Yeah, I opted for a smaller phone this last upgrade (in what, four years) in hopes of using it less and being less noticeable in the pocket. Used to have this big screen phone with which I wouldn’t have much issue watching or reading stuff on. Now with a much smaller one, “not” having a huge screen to consume media on, making it less attractive to do so, and it’s been working pretty well I think. Couldn’t bring myself to go full dumbphone, er, feature? phone.

I find it funny that the 13 mini (2.53"x5.18") is bigger than the iphone 4 (2.31"x4.5") of yesteryear.

But it's not just my phone, it's a hotline to all my friends, my camera, my main payment method, my map, my schedule, my parking apps, an answer to any question I could possibly think of, and twenty kinds of entertainment within a couple of taps.

It's not the 90s anymore. Rightly or wrongly, we've integrated with these devices. Leaving it behind is like leaving a lobe at home.

Staying on top of your notifications in your downtime is a job, but it's possible.

People in this thread are conflating "phone" and "smartphone".

You can just carry a cheap dumbphone and it works for texting people or emergency calls just fine.

But then I need two phones. Why?

I disagree with the premise. I understand people wanting to break bad habits with their phone, but it's like saying "feeling anxiety about not having a refrigerator at home shouldn't be normal." When a tool gets invented that makes our lives easier, what we didn't know we needed before becomes indispensable. These things, problems though they may bring, are extremely empowering, and we take it for granted.

My solution to this problem (anxiety at potentially missing some very important incoming message) is to wear a watch that has wide area connectivity and syncs with the important message streams (voice, signal, work slack, sms, email, not social media). The watch has a good enough UX to receive and act upon messages, but sufficiently crappy that you want to ignore it unless it's indicating some hair-on-fire situation.

Haven't had a mobile phone in years as I value my privacy because a number of online services exist which will geolocate any mobile phone number from anywhere in the world and its a completely legal form of stalking! Besides I noticed I get brain fog if I use a mobile so I need to keep my wits about me as there is alot of organised crime in the world especially those running countries!

The energy behind this line of complaint about cellphone/pocket internet connected computers has the same feel as people loudly proclaiming that they "do not watch TV" from the 2000's.

I'm going to chalk it up to neo-ludditeism without the actual labor component that Ned Ludd was fighting against. (protip: he too was antiwork)

In this day and age of openly tracking everyone's movement by government departments I'm surprised anyone brings there cellphone with them when they travel.

Unless you accept creating a forever digital footprint of everyplace you go leave your cellphone at home. We know better but we pretend it doesn't matter because it's easier.

If you don't take your phone everyplace and leave it at home often, you'll probably also end up in some list of suspicion people at some point in the future. Absence of data together with an identity is also a footprint.

Cell phone is how my daycare communicates with us. We've only had our daughter in daycare for 3 months now and already we've had (very)two minor medical issues they needed/wanted our input on. It's also the device I use to organize who is picking her up from daycare at the end of the day.

Left all my electronics at home when attending a pro-Ukraine event in my city in Feb.

My gf was incredulous at first until I explained myself, but it’s obvious: if you live and work in a city and know it well, you don’t need a phone to go 30 minutes from the house and back, except for medical reasons (eg arthritis, fatigue)

My phone is how my family reaches me in an emergency. How can I help them if they can't reach me? It would be irresponsible to leave home without it.

Internet on the phone is nice to have, but it's phone calls and texts that need to work for me. (I prefer actual phone calls, because that's what I grew up with)

Interesting, of course I grew up in a time where you couldn't have a phone with you (economically) while on a trip with the family. My concern was if something happened how would I reach help. Not what was going on with the world. Different perspective to be sure.

The key concern with my phone is losing my 2FA access. I have backup codes, but leaving my phone and my backup codes at home is not great, in case something happens to my home. In general I try to maintain a sense of redundancy wrt my data and access.

I feel uncomfortable when I leave home without my wallet or (in longer trips) messenger bag. These are powerful essentials that help me neutralize dangers that happen outdoors that I don't expect. I don't see why a smartphone is any different.

I'd be feeling uncomfortable because I don't have my camera, my map, my audio analyzer, my starmap, my tricorder... Use your phone as the awesome integrated sensor suite it is, not as social media shackles.

We shouldn't call it phone.

Who uses it as a phone these days anyway?

For many people it's their life's central information nexus and it's absolutely normal to get uncomfortable when leaving THAT at home.

I recently got my first Apple Watch with a cellular plan specifically so I can leave my phone at home and still be reachable via phone and text message. Mostly it’s great. The watch barely works well enough as a phone, I can play Spotify, Apple Maps kind of works for directions (not nearly as well as Google maps on the phone IMO), and that’s basically all that’s usable, which is nice.

However, when dropping off my kid at school they require a Covid screening app (phone only) that you have to show every morning. I got half way to Whole Foods before turning back realizing I needed my phone to scan the Amazon Prime code to get better prices.

I expect more and more everyday activities will require smartphones sadly.

It used to be that pay phones were everywhere, but because of the plethora of cell phones, they have all been removed. So yes, it's a little unnerving to forget my phone at home.

I dont mind leaving my phone as long as I’m with my kids. I cant imagine something happening to them and I didnt know for x-amount of time because I decided to leave my phone.

My compromise is a smartwatch. I can use it to make emergency calls if I need to, but the availability of easy stimulation is considerably reduced compared to a smartphone.

Mobile phones, particularly smartphones, are incredibly useful devices, particularly while mobile, and it doesn’t seem weird to be uncomfortable when one doesn’t have it.

Yes, you should shun electricity too. If you need to communicate with someone, just ride your horse over to them, or send them a carrier pigeon. It's not hard.

If I left the greatest tool civilization has ever developed at home, I would feel very uncomfortable. I'm closer to a demi-god than a man when I have one.

Why are they still called phones?

I think the phone function is one of the lesser used ones. More appropriate would be Smartcamera, if you don't want to call it a computer

I think phones calls still serve as infrastructure of last resort. It’s main downside is also it’s benefit, the pressure for immediate interactive response and attention.

It’s preferred to call a restaurant to see if they have the wallet or card you lost. Your flight got canceled? Best call to get the quickest list of other flight options. Typing while driving is right out, but calling is not, even if a voice call is arguably still distracting.

My theory has been because they are still largely used as a communication device, which was the primary function of a phone. Text messaging/messaging apps in general are a core feature literally 100% of users need.

Also because these devices started as phones of course.

I use my phone as a mobile phone 90% of the time when I am away from home. The other 10% is tracking my cycling with Strava, I can easily live without that.

It shouldn't be normal....unless we live in a world where the feeling of our daily infrastructure of life is dependent upon smartphones.

Which it is.

I don't think its that unreasonable of a feeling given that smartphones are essentially multi-tools for life these days

I bought a lightphone. It's expensive and buggy, but it helped kill my phone addiction. Dumb phone with music and maps.

bugs are a feature to make you hate it even more

I wish I could leave mine at home more often, but I need it on me pretty much all the time for my diabetes management.

How did diabetics manage before smartphones?

My grandparents don’t wish things back to the good ole days. It’s possible to have balance.

I agree; this is not normal at all! After all, that's why Apple Watch was invented! ;)

I feel uncomfortable when leaving my watch at home too (mechanical, not digital one).

It's all fun and games till you need to call ER real quick.

Carry a ye olden flip phone for this; they tend to work even without a SIM for 911.

I've been doing this on purpose lately...

my friend's phone died last year and he

1) couldn't get inside anywhere to charge it because he didn't have his covid vaccine card anywhere

2) couldn't scan a menu to order at the outdoor cafe we found in the mean time

it was amusing, it stopped being fun very quickly, but we figured it out. these two scenarios are obviously not as relevant any more

but its way beyond "addiction"

Are people not terrified at the 50% chance the entire society and environment we live in is being engineered to require us to carry tracking and surveillance devices on us 24/7 for sinister purposes down the road ?? I'd argue its even more than a 50% chance after what happened with Australia and Canada recently

wat? what ya talkin about?

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