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Comment by exolymph | Hacker News Reader

In white-collar environments a lot of this shit is self-inflicted. Like if you let Slack send you notifications on your phone and check your email more than once a day when you don't really need to... stop doing that.

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Don't underestimate the power of peer pressure. If everyone but you is 24/7 responsive on Slack, you are at a disadvantage if you are not. Conversations might take place without you and come out in a way that you disagree with or your opportunities to contribute to important decisions is simply diminished. You might be seen as providing less value than others and be the one missing out on promotions.

If I wanted a promotion I'd cut my hair, dry-clean my suit, and update my resume. Best way to get a raise is to get a new job.

On the flip side, we shouldn't underestimate the competitive edge of actually having life-work balance. Recovering properly when you're off work makes you smarter and more productive when you're at work. Being chronically exhausted, bordering on burn-out is not a recipe for getting shit done.

That's true, but it is a recipe for looking like you're getting shit done and claiming credit for the other people's work.

Side note, look how much is written about Musks crazy work schedule. Without going down that rabbit hole too far, you can see why he makes that information public.

You’re only at a disadvantage if you want to maximize your career trajectory at the expense of your work-life balance.

If you wanted that, you’d be playing the same game as your 24x7 colleagues. That you aren’t means you (quite reasonably) have other priorities.

Neither you nor they are wrong; you’re just optimizing for different things.

Yeah it's pretty odd what most of the commenters in this post are saying. As if they've forgotten not everyone in a workplace, even at the same level, have identical goals. In fact in a big enough workplace, almost certainly there will be at least 2 very opposite goals.

Same for management as well. Some drive their subordinates hard but are willing to fight for big bonuses and fast promotions, others don't care as much and probably will also not be keen to investigate promotions, etc., either.

None of the responses are addressing the very strong point that not being available 24/7 when others are means you miss out on important decision-making opportunities. That's not necessarily about ambition, it's about enjoying your job and the things you work on and how you do them. It's about avoiding problems because you were there to voice your concerns. Without that input, you can end up feeling like a lackey.

If you're working at a company where important tech decisions which aren't at all time-critical are being made 24x7 by "whoever happens to respond on slack", I think you have some pretty serious issues all around.

> If you wanted that, you’d be playing the same game as your 24x7 colleagues.

I mostly agree, but come to a different conclusion. In my mind the situation is a repeated prisoner's dilemma where defection is equivalent to off-hours responses. With no defections, everyone lives a pleasant life with healthy boundaries, and regular career advancement. If one defects, they receive accelerated career advancement while the other does not. If they both defect, they live a miserable life with unhealthy boundaries and regular career advancement.

It has all the trappings of being able to make individual choices, but the system is best analyzed as a group. An global optimum exists and it doesn't involve playing 24x7.

> you are at a disadvantage if you are not.

Are you?

If you want to become a manager and director of engineering or something then you probably need to sign up for checking your e-mail all the time.

If you're an IC and want to stay an IC you'd probably do better to make yourself indispensable by learning the codebase you're working on and becoming an expert. Which will be a lot easier if you're uninterrupted with mundane details.

Also if you're the firefighting person and the person that is easily interruptible then that's what you'll get, so you'll be constantly context switching and won't be able to become the indispensable expert.

And if you really want to climb the ladder, like someone else pointed out, you probably want to job hop.

You may be at a significant disadvantage by thinking that this is the way that you get rewarded.

My department is required to have Outlook/Teams on our phones. We get reimbursed for part of our cell bill, but it's a pittance. We're expected to be reachable in an "emergency."

Get a second cheap Android phone?

That wouldn't remove their expectation of being reachable in an emergency...

It would prevent Outlook/Teams from bugging you with notifications at all hours. You could set up call forwarding or something like that. If someone's not willing to pick up a phone, it's not an emergency.

My work after hours will be commiserate with the proportion reimbursed. You want me 24/7 you pay 100% of any bills required to do that. It's like the brown m&ms rider.

If they're not willing to throw the (at this point) $200 a month at me for 24/7 access, what else are they gunna pull?

> and check your email more than once a day when you don't really need to... stop doing that.

I'm genuinely curious, what sort of white-collar jobs exist where you can only check your email once a day?

i’ve got coworkers who ought to be checking their email but i’m pretty sure they never have.

they just make you tell them everything in meetings.

YMMV, but I do marketing and communications at a startup with a small team that's used to working asynchronously. We get a lot done on Discord, I admit. But I check in a couple of times a day, on my schedule, and I don't have any notifications unless I'm actively looking at Discord. Email, well, I rarely have incoming messages that I need to respond to immediately as opposed to within 24-hours-ish.

So true... also these people are obsessive compulsive, they really can't stop that easily and their management is all too happy to reap the benefits while their health deteriorates slowly.

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