I'm an addict | Hacker News Reader

I'm an addict

onetwo.bearblog.dev

611 points_jvd3583 comments

I dont like the idea of replacing the time spend compulsively procrastinating with "learning a new language, getting a pet, going to the gym" is the right way.

I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.

During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.

Instead i try to accept the necesity of "falde i staver" (danish for 'falling out of presence'). When i was a kid i would often just fall into this state and just defocus with my sight and let daydreaming take over.

Basically i have a war going against effectiveness. I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)

They're just cliche ideas for how to fill the time. Anyone one who tries to break an addiction suddenly finds themselves with a lot of free time they don't know how to fill.

But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.

I would strongly argue against having kids as a solution for any of life‘s problems. Kids are an incredibly demanding venture and can exacerbate existing problems. Speaking from experience here.

> But on that note, have multiple kids AND get a pet. You'll never have a free minute again.

But then you’ll flock to these addictions because you feel you need an escape.

I have four kids and a ShiTsu.

Or multiple pets and no kids, got 2 labs, a cat, a fish, and a cockatiel--its never boring at my house.

I am nearly the opposite, but it has the same effect.

I can spend hours in my own head, just thinking about… everything. For me the phone rabbit hole usually starts with an idea that needs more information to live.

The outcome, however, is the same: I get very little practical work done, I am constantly behind and very frustrated.

Yes I have this problem.

I am getting better at doing things, but I quickly become overwhelmed, because those thoughts never stop and instead of doing what I need to do, it's a battle plus all those thoughts I have that feel like I need to spend time thinking them through etc, rather than doing the most basic of things that I need to do.

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

OK, I get this. Really, I do. I've spent many many hours doing "nothing" just like this, and those have generally been happy times. But ... how would that change if you had a lot more free time? Could you spend all day every day in such a state? Would it be healthy if you did?

The reason I ask is that I've had to grapple with that question since I retired. Probably will even more so when my daughter leaves for college. And as much as I enjoy doing "nothing" I find that I just can't do it all day. I have to be doing something, which brings us right back to the issue of low-effort low-reward activities (e.g. doomscrolling on the internet) vs. high-effort high-reward activities (e.g. hobbies, community involvement, travel). I force myself to do the latter first so I don't lose the ability to do hard(er) things, and there's still plenty of time left over for the low-effort stuff.

I suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.

I agree. I recently came on sick leave due to stress and had to grasp the immense amount of sudden time on my hands.

Since i am on sickleave due to anxiety, stress and skizotypia i dont usually like being alone with my thoughts.

so what ive done with my time is this:

Wake up, fill my thermos with hot water. Leave my apartment.

Drive around on my bike looking for hidden places. It can be an empty lot behind a supermarket or an off-path place in the forrest.

Walk around and study the vegetation. Find a nice place for some instant coffee, chill.

Sit-drink coffee-stare-listen-repeat.

Decide to leave. Bike to a place where there is a lot of people i know. Leave cuz i am too anxious to talk to any of them.

Have a quick chat at the harbour with some strangers.

Go to the library and read a bit of comics or newspapers. Take the bus to another harbour.

Make minor.fixes to my small boat from the 70's.

Go to the swimming hall. chill in sauna and max up the heat. Stare.

Go home, make food for minimum money as an exercise. Eat.

Think about projects i could imagine would be fun. Imagine the details of them. Maybe write them down. Be okay with never doing them.

Watch some hbo.

Plan when i have my kids again "maybe tomorrow?" And where to take them? Usually the beach or the forrest and have fun in the woods.

Go my my bedroom without any devices and sleep.

I live in denmark

>i suggest that your "war" only needs to be fought because you don't have enough total free time, and it will seem like a very different war when that changes.

My war is personal, ive been over productive for 7 years like this: Work 50+ hours as it engineer, taking on too much responsibility. Doing opensource projects in spare time. Doing srt projects like stage shows and stuff on weekends. Being a dad to 3. Being main supplyer of moneys in the home. Having some heavy duty mental ilness diagnoses on the top. All the while i never felt i was worth anything. Not a dime.

Now i aim for having low amount of recurring bills. Chill with my kids (i now dont live with anymore since the above details produced my divorce) Be outside, all weather, all the time. Be helpful. And accept a new way of not being productive. And therefore also not consuming a lot.

This somehow points towards an interesting question. Is it healthy or "good" to procrastinate? Since this is a problem almost everyone has during their life, it must serve some evolutionary purpose.

What if it was disadvantageous to outwork everyone else during anthropogenesis even if it is rational in our modern world where the upside is practically unlimited and the downside is nearly always limited? A natural environment is almost exactly the opposite - Does that mean we are fighting our "natural" behavior every day? This question isn't meaning to be fatalistic, exactly what OP and the video by Luke Smith he linked criticize. But understanding the biological reason behind procrastination could lead us to some deeper understanding on how to win this uphill battle.

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees.

yes, I even like framing this as an environmental conservation activity.

I'm doing nothing at all (only consuming oxygen, no content, no nothing) as a conscious action to save the environment.

I don’t want to guilt anyone here, but just sitting there and consuming oxygen and therefore calories is a significant environmental impact. Feeding humans, especially fresh fruits and vegetables or meat, has a pretty large environmental impact. (Staples like grains and such don’t because they’re storable and calorie-dense on a per-acre metric.)

And humans can have a positive impact on the environment. We can plant trees, do civil engineering to shore up damaged ecosystems, care for animals, develop cleaner ways to live and make food, etc. humans do not have to be a net negative for the environment.

Which isn’t to say that resting and daydreaming are bad or net negative. I think they’re good! Even if just good for the soul, that helps fight the encroaching nihilism of modern life and think more in a positive-sum manner.

Once you realize that idle brain time is when actual creative problem solving occurs without you conscious of it then its easier to let go. I definitely feel fine just staring out of a train window rather than my phone knowing this.

The way I view this is that there's no such thing as idle brain time. When you take away focused conscious thinking, the brain is built to do background problem-solving on its own. (This also makes sense if the purpose of dreaming while asleep is garbage-collection of unresolved thoughts and anxieties.)

> I hold unto my right as a mammal to be inefficient and sit drooling looking at trees

here, here!

Quick question: we have a similar (the same?) exclamation in German, it's "hört, hört!" which would be translated to "hear, hear!", not "here, here!". Is it actually "here, here!" in English or it possible you've just mistaken the words after having only heard them?

I’ve found that having a very finite procrastination activity (like, say, doing ten push-ups) can help. The trick is finding something that can’t be extended indefinitely.

I see this a lot and I’m curious - why can’t you stand being with yourself?

You touch on it a little when you say you begin to panic when you’re idle - what is the source of that panic? Is it FOMO? Is it un-processed traumatic memories? Is it unhinged neuroticism and overthinking? Is it something else? What is the source of that panic?

I dont like my company because: I endlessly think about solutions to problems like personal budget, relationship to my kids mom, feeling alone and having no immediate people to talk to. That my mental illness is deteriorating. That my kids will inherit my ilness. Etc etc etc. And then i also spend too much time trying to figure out how other people function since i sincerely dont have an idea of what "normal behavior of lifestyle" looks like"

Both of these are traits of my skizotypical diagnosis being 'lack of identity' 'lack of understanding of how other people engage in life' 'emotional blindness' etc

You might like the book "4000 Weeks: Time Management for Mortals." It's about this precise idea of valuing idleness (there's no quick way to change that mindset, it's a process).

Thank You for this recommendation, a refreshing book in the age of GTD, 4-hour workweek and numerous "lifehacks".

At least if you know you have addictive tendencies you will get a benefit! :D It's a good first step to replacing a destructive/ineffective behavior with something a little better. I think in our software somewhere we all have a kind of addictive complex that for some, modern tech seems to be good at pushing. If you can wield it for good, I think that's a good change.

I agree with you that the obsession with S-tier clearing life is very bad for people. I have many young friends who obsess over optimizing every move they make at cost to their sanity and time. Specialization is for insects.

I agree with you on not liking the idea of changing your time sinks. I ran into a similar problem as your's with Reddit, and realized it was because I did not really like my self.

Somewhere along the way I realized I had not day dreamed or used my imagination for a long time because it was so easy to "read the nearest material I can lay my hands on".

To add to your advice I would suggest to try to find out who you are without outside material and to get comfortable with this self.

But what if being in the moment at one with yourself and your environment is an addiction for you as well? I spent years in the trap he describes. Binging passive eacapes like YouTube Netflix, an even pulp fiction novels. Video games were a step up, at least they involved engagement. I also loved solo hiking, or even staring at a blank wall thinking, or not thinking. Anything to avoid cleaning the dishes, folding clothes, filling out forms, making phone calls, or any task I couldn't manage to hyperfocus on. I only escaped by getting married and having a kid. Love for others helped where love to self did not. After all, I was happy in that place, and probably still would be. But while a family is work, its also a challenge, and rising to meet it gives a real sense of accomplishment. Now that I am diagnosed as ADHD and have some mmedicine and training to deal with it, I find that using them to push through other tasks I don't like, also brings that sense of accomplishment and those unexpected rewards make it easier the next time. ADHD brains don't accept deferred rewards as positive reinforcement for learning purposes, so you either need continuous rewards, or medicine/tricks to get through. Also we respond better to negative reinforcement, so if it doesn't harm your emotional state, denying yourself things as a punishment can work, also focussing on natural consequences of failing to complete a task works sometimes, even in advance.

> I see the root cause (for me atleast (used to read HN and blogs for 4 hours everyday)) is that i cant stand being with myself.

> During the last two months ive been trying to not panic when i'm idle. And not take out my phone or read the nearest material i can lay my hands on.

> (...)

> My advice on "doing something" when you have day without plans is the following: Bike in the forrest, coffee from thermos near the ocean, read newspapers at the library, talk to people at trainstations (the frequent hangouts are always open for conversations)

Or maybe meditate? It may be hard (specially when beginning) but it's wonderful for learning to comfortable with yourself

Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD.

Half the article was them complaining about poor working memory, and the rest about getting stimulation/dopamine from unhealthy sources.

Everyone has "a little ADHD". We all occasionally, forget things, hyperfocus on things we are excited about, etc. ADHD is the disorder of having those struggles so often it's debilitating. It stems from having an underdeveloped frontal lobe that doesn't feel dopamine as well as neurotypical brains do, meaning an ADHD brain needs more stimulus to feel healthy.

Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD.

Addiction, in the public consciousness/vernacular, is more abstract than SAD: it can mean anything from chemical dependence to unwanted habits. I suspect most people tend to make a false equivalence between the former and the latter. I see all the time people struggling to change a simple habit and immediately labeling themselves "addicts". I think that's a unhelpful characterization.

I think the point people tend to miss is that in order to change a habit, you don't just "stop doing it": you must replace it with an alternative dopamine source. This is especially tricky with untreated ADHD.

As someone actually diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD, I'm stunned by the clarity and relatability of this description of it, right down to the SAD that has afflicted me for over a decade. None of my doctors has ever put it so clearly, so obviously, in a way that connects to my actual experience. All that is to say, I'm bringing this to my next therapy session, wish me luck.

Good luck! I'm glad I could help.

> I think that's a unhelpful characterization.

I agree, and I think it is important to talk about the sensation, not just the observation or impact on others (which are easy to compare poorly).

To me it isn't so much the _what_, but the _why_. The brain is hunting for stimulation due to a baseline deficit below that required to operate normally. I can tell you from experience that "hunt" can range from classic hyperfocus/lack of focus to chronic boredom, hypersexuality, drug abuse and so on.

What provides the stimulation to reach baseline one day, may not work the next day, or even from hour-to-hour or minute to minute. That's the core issue, however it manifests. If just one thing consistently hit the spot, it'd be akin to an addiction (where in addiction your brain down regulates, so you need to keep supplying it).

As it stands, it is more like being addicted to both everything and nothing, in a never ending frenzy of disatisfaction, frustration and boredom. Your brain, always downregulated, always chasing a moving fix.

Habit doesn't come into it one tiny bit.

I agree with this completely. I sounded just like the OP. I struggled with it for decades. Then recently I was diagnosed and started taking medication. Some of the problems basically stopped instantly.

I implore anyone reading this and noticing it in themselves to go to a professional and find out if you have ADHD or not. I am by no means "cured" or completely functional but at least now I have a fighting chance.

Medication came with unacceptable side-effects for me. Real bummer.

Glad it works for you but I don't think taking "party drugs" on a daily basis is a good long-term idea

You alluded to this, but I think it’s worth saying explicitly:

People with ADHD are 2.7 times more likely to deal with depression than people without.

This is very subjective and I can’t put a finger on what it is exactly but something in this post just feels like depression.

I think you're catching the overall sentiment, which is "why does it matter?". I actually wonder whether the causal direction works the other way sometimes with anxiety/depression. The combination of the two makes it hard to evaluate or visualize long term positive outcomes of current actions, so you're more likely to gravitate towards things that are immediately rewarding.

My unrelated take is that remote work is going to make this problem way worse.

I picked up on it too. I think theres a subtle tone of resignation or hopelessness.

Another alternative explanation, that I find that extends to many alleged addictions is that he is avoiding doing what he needs to do because anxiety.

A recent related post:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31408431

Both could be true: for a person with ADHD, lack of stimulation can cause anxiety.

That is what I thought for the longest time. Then I learned my anxiety was because of my ADHD.

I feel seen.

My mechanism for remaining focused and getting through work has been to consume harder illicit substances, mostly cocaine. It's effective but definitely not sustainable long time and I'm not too sure where from here.

I have been in this situation. I only saw two options for myself: move from cocaine to adderall, for the focus specifically, presuming you didn’t leave adderall for cocaine, of course.

Second, seek medical help. Today, thats the path I would choose. You need a social safety net too, or things might take a bad turn.

Good luck with it, be well, and try and care for yourself the way you’d care for a sick parent or child.

I mix Adderall and marijuana. It's horrible for my health, but boy does it work. Adderall gets my mind moving, and pot keeps me sitting in my chair, ignorant of the passage of time, focused on work.

As counterproductive as it seems, I think pot makes me more mindful, which can boost my work productivity. Sometimes I will smoke and then spend 30 minutes organizing my folder structures, documenting code, or writing a script to do something that I do manually everyday. When I'm not on pot, all of those tasks seem too trivial to justify doing.

Short answer, prescription drugs can reliably fill in the spot of cocaine. You'll save money, stress and also these drugs can cover much more of the day.

No joke; shoot me an email if you want a detailed solution. I can easily chew your ear off with my own tale and anecdotes. Email on my profile page.

Try Modafinil, it replaced my coke habit.

I was later diagnosed with severe ADHD.

Desoxyn 5mg is highly reviewed by people who have it prescribed for ADHD.

I was exactly like OP for 2 years. I was in therapy talking about it that whole time, to no result whatsoever. Then I got on Wellbutrin and literally ten days later all of that behavior just completely ended, and I returned to taking care of important shit and being productive. No willpower required. I just suddenly felt compelled to do different things. Just saying.

Wellbutrin is known to fuck with dopamine, presumably sometimes for the better.

How many years ago was that?

How does one generally go about dealing with the fact that the above is a 100% match for oneself, 30-some years into life? I'm feeling physically sweaty realizing how accurately the article – and this comment – describes me.

First thing to consider is whether your behavior is causing problems with your life. Are you flaking on responsibilities? Failing at work? Are you feeling out of control?

Next, set up an appointment with a mental health professional (I recommend a psychiatrist) to talk through your thoughts. They will help you identify the causes of your behavior and provide solutions.

Whether it leads to an ADHD diagnosis or not, therapy is a great place to start.

And whether you have it or not, learning about ADHD is a great thing to do. I recommend starting with this cheesy yet informative YouTube channel: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD

> Everyone has "a little ADHD".

I get what you’re saying but I want to push back hard on this. Everyone has some of the symptoms of ADHD at any given time.

But, ADHD isn’t more of the same symptoms. That’s how it’s diagnosed, but the underlying mechanism is a severely compromised ability to self-regulate which is categorically different from what people experience when they are out of mental energy.

Edit: I've clarified what I mean in other comments in the thread. My issue is the use of the phrase without explaining why it is wrong.

You're splitting hairs.

Everyone has a little trouble regulating themselves, some people have a little more trouble, some people have enough trouble that it becomes a disorder.

I think your reaction is understandable, since "Everyone is/has a little X" is commonly used to dismiss or minimize the severity of a condition the speaker doesn't understand.

But I don't feel like that's the case here.

AFAICT, GP agree with you.

> Sounds like OP isn't necessarily an addict: they have ADHD

Two sides of the same coin imho. Both mechanisms are dopamine-driven.

That's literally my point.

ADHD is like having a coin that's to thin for the press (stimulation/dopamine) to leave a mark. Addiction is like having the press put too much pressure.

This shouldn't be flagged... This was a totally valid comment which generated tons of fine discussion.

> Because of the deficit in stimulus, people with untreated ADHD are statistically much more likely to have a substance abuse disorder (SAD); but in many cases, treating their ADHD (with medication and cognitive behavioral therapy) has the side effect of treating their SAD

I feel like I am one of the rare people that developed a SAD from medically treating ADHD. It's not from the intended effects of the medication, but from trying to treat the side-effects.

I do think one should not bring it all to adhd being a physiological deficiency of the brain.

For me personally it is also about being above average smart. I'm intensely bored by a lot of people and activities. I lose interest, can't remember a lot, get irritated easily.

After many years I have some good friends, work which suits me, I know how to leasure well, basically I know how to amuse and challenge myself and don't experience lots of the adhs symptoms anymore.

People with ADHD are twice as likely to become addicted to substances, I assume the same is true of YouTube. For many, including me, ADHD and addiction come hand in hand.

> "a little ADHD"

Yikes. What a bad take. Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement. But saying everyone has a little bit of this debilitating mental disorder makes light of something that is not an easy thing to deal with for many sufferers.

That's like saying everyone has a little cancer because sometimes we all get colds which people going through chemo may be more likely to get.

I think a better way to frame it is on a continuum. If you lose 1% of the strength in your legs you probably won't notice. If you lose 99% you're stuck using a wheelchair. There's no clearly defined point where it goes from "normal" to "problematic", but if it's bad enough to affect you functioning in day-to-day life then it's an issue.

> Many people experience some of the side effects of ADHD may be a true statement.

I think that's exactly what they meant, since they put it in quotes and then go on to say that ADHD proper is when those complications are debilitating.

It scares me how much this reminds me of myself. I don't know how I was able to keep my job (and keep the roof over my family's heads) with my habit of not being able to concentrate on work at all because the minute I need to think a bit harder I immediately switch to reading news, HN or watching YouTube, only to finish my work late in the evening to save my ass (on good days).

Not that I've conquered it by any means, but I find narrating helps for me to maintain a thread of activity. Lots of my work involves switching between applications & cloud folders and any break in that can trip me up. I find if I talk to myself as if I were explaining what I'm doing (ie a tutorial but not as rigorous) that really helps. I used to use screen capture software to take time-lapse videos to give myself the impression I was being watched/monitored. But that isn't as effective as I know I'll probably never watch them.

Yeah it is definitely for me a reaction to feeling overwhelmed. There's just that bit of activation energy that is missing so I slip back to equilibrium of doing easy things.

Adderall has helped, so has some behavioral approaches, but nothing is a cure. For me, trying to eliminate distractions is either a distraction itself or ineffective.

Structured procrastination is useful, at least I am practicing piano or getting more fit instead of sitting around watching TV or reading dumb articles and forums.

High BPM music does it for me.

Music works for me too. When I listen to music, the feeling of choosing between "fun" and "work" disappears because I get to do both. Once I am focusing on the work I no longer pay attention to the music and I don't stop having fun with the work.

The biggest problem is that I am randomly bored and watch a youtube video. It's just 15 minutes after all, how much could it hurt? and then I waste 2 hours which is 105 minutes more than I had when I started watching that video. Maybe I should play mobile games because those have those pesky daily energy limits that stop you from playing more.

Same, or mostly just mixes that go on for an hour or two which I can put on so I don't end up distracted clicking through tracks and discovering shit I want to get. I also have to remind myself to set time aside for checking tracklists on tracks.

Helps I got a side gig playing music haha but my bookmarks on that are gargantuan. The dancehall reggae section alone is massive. I never listen to that and get stuff done, really the best concentration music for me doesn't matter the BPM it just has to be mostly free of lyrical content. So work music is mostly electronic or classical.

What are you listening to that's high BPM for work? That hard techno shit out of Europe lately is a lot of fun, Anetha is incredible [1]

[1] https://youtu.be/qVRj8-t4PwI

This hits hard. I recently counted hours watched on YT (via history export) and OH MY GD, it averaged around 3 hours daily throught the year, for several years. I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else: playing an instrument, learning a new language, coding a side-project. The thought scared me so much, aka the difference between current me and "potential" me that I have abstained from YT... for a week, and then I've slipped back. I am truly powerless, damn. Any other ideas besides cold turkey? I mean, some "quality time" needs also to exist, you cannot abstain from everything, right? Or is this a fallacy that gets alcoholics backs to alcohol?

Very un-HN take but maybe you're not meant to be 100% efficient all the time, maybe having some time to be passive and relax is good actually. Maybe we work far too much already and expecting to be additionally productive outside those hours is an express train to burnout?

I don't disagree with this but the constant state of being "plugged in" is the issue. Mind wandering is a real useful practice and the being plugged in is antithetical to mind wandering.

Some of my most clearest thoughts, ideas, or beliefs came to me when I was just walking on the street not listening to podcasts, audio books, music or browsing social media.

I think it's far more useful to literally stare at a wall for 3 hours than just mindlessly watch youtube videos. I say this as someone who is addicted to social media/internet as well and struggle very hard to overcome.

What I do is use the freedom app to set time limits and ban these sites during periods of the week. I bought one of those timed safes where I stick my phone in to completely stop the temptation for 4 or 6 hours. I know I can't completely end it, but what I want to do is just nudge myself to do something else. Instead of grabbing a phone maybe I'll attempt to read a book, or draw, or work on some data visualizations, or contribute to OSS. All activities I'd say I value more than browsing reddit (or twitter or youtube or HN) for hours every night, but my actions prove otherwise.

I'm not saying I've improved my habits 300% but at the beginning of the year I would read a book for 5 minutes put the book down pick up my phone then read reddit for an hour; at least now I can read a book for 45 minutes without being distracted. It hurts writing this because in college I'd read nearly 500 pages a week + my readings for class, I'd read nearly 200 books a year but over the last 5 years I've probably read 3.

I don't know where I'm going with this, I guess my mind wanders when writing as well...

Instead of seeing them trying to maximize efficiency, think of them trying to maximize fulfillment. Now it makes more sense why binging Youtube (or whatever) might be a problem. And it's not about getting work done.

It's about being happy with the life you're living, the life you chose, and being able to take control to work towards your fulfilling desires rather than just choosing the feel-good compulsions forever.

The self-perceived problem with such behavior is not the hours spent per se, but the hours spent in state of absent consciousness. You jump from one compulsory behavior to another, it's not fun, it's just unconscious existence.

I don’t think the parent comment is arguing for 100% efficiency though. They just don’t feel comfortable watching YT for an average of 3 hours a day.

Not to say it's a great use of your time, but watching YouTube videos is a fairly passive activity. You can do it when you're otherwise out of energy and barely able to pay attention, so it isn't necessarily competing with blocks of time in which you can do something like code up side projects and learn to play new instruments.

Also, again maybe not for you, but a lot of people's numbers if they're just looking at watch history are going to be totally out of whack if they're using YouTube as a music streaming service. My wife's account is the one logged into our television and this would constitute the vast bulk of watch hours, having music on in the background while cleaning the house, cooking dinner, and doing a whole lot of other things. You definitely can't practice tuba in the background while also cooking and cleaning.

> 3 hours daily throught the year, for several years.

So, less than the average amount of time people spend watching TV?

still a lot, imho. considering how much we spend on commute, work, sport, preparing food and socializing, this is basically almost all your time budget as a "free" time. Then its either wasted consuming addictive crap or doing something interesting with it.

I started learning Japanese about two years ago now and now all of the time I used to waste watching YouTube is spent watching YouTube in Japanese as language practice. It's still the same activity but is at least somewhat productive. I barely go on Hacker News too, since it feels like more of a waste of time ("I could be studying Japanese right now!").

Any particular recommendations for an intermediate Japanese learner?

Edit: Maybe "upper beginner" is a better fit. I dunno, self study is weird.

Nice! is there some purpose like career advancement or is it simply about pleasure and learning a new culture?

I did similar with video games, playing them in a different language made me feel better about it.

Why not improve your local community instead of learning a foreign language?

>I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else:

That's impossible. You can click on a youtube video instantly at any moment and waste 3 hours thanks to the power of the algorithm. Spending that time on anything specific would require you to plan that into your schedule. You are not going to work on a side project when you think you have 30 min for some "harmless" fun but you sure are going to be trapped by the algorithm for three hours without planning to do so.

> I just imagined WHAT IF I have spent this amount of effort and time on ANYTHING else: playing an instrument, learning a new language, coding a side-project

This is a very unfair set of "ANYTHING else". I am sure you can come up with more real world list of what other people actually do after work, and that might make you feel a little more lenient about your own choices and needs.

> Any other ideas besides cold turkey?

/etc/hosts

127.0.0.1 youtube.com

127.0.0.1 www.youtube.com

Best of luck.

I even have cron job which over writes /etc/hosts with an /etc/hosts.bak with that content and i have disabled any dns caching in firefox (don't ask me how). Yet .... Sigh ....

This is very real. The time adds up and it's often not the best way to relax/learn. Not only you could spend this time being productive, you could also just be resting or sleeping or just reflecting on your life.

You might want to check out https://watchlimits.com/ (free extension, I built this), or some other tools I mention in https://watchlimits.com/blog/posts/more_hours_per_week/

Read what Ted has to say about the necessity of going through the power process (paragraphs 33 onward) and the motives of scientists (paragraphs 87 onward) for some perspective in his manifesto on Industrial Society and Its Future:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/unab...

What a long-winded rant. Does he ever construct a reasoned argument?

A lot of the addictive component comes from the ML generated suggestions.

Just curate a decently small list of high quality channels and only browse via the subscriptions list. You'll know when you're all caught up and the FOMO isn't there. You'll still catch the stuff you're interested in, but you won't be pulled in a million other random directions.

That said, I have the YouTube bug pretty bad myself.

If you have YouTube Premium & the YouTube mobile app; click on your profile picture, then YouTube Premium Benefits. It'll tell you there, of all places, your total "Ad-free video watchtime"; doesn't include the hours watched without Premium, not organizing it per day, not the greatest analytics, but its a number that will surprise every person reading this.

Learning to play an instrument is fun and can be just as addicting. I'd recommend a small form keyboard that can be kept nearby at all times. I adore my Yamaha Reface CP, if you manage to find one. The best part - grinding through chords, arpeggios, scales and challenging song sections to get them into muscle memory can be done while watching unrelated videos.

Did you estimate the hours by summing total video lenghts in history?

As I recall there was no time spent stat, just video history eothout watchtime indication.

There is no "official" way of doing this (as I imagine it will scare people away). You have to export your watch history as JSON that contains watch date and video ID. Then you obtain API key from google and iterate over all video IDs and add up video lengths. Yes, this is inaccurate for cases when you scroll thorugh a video and not watch it completely.

For all of this there were multiple projects on github that do all of this + with plots.

Ackshually, the mobile apps have statistics on watching, which seem to include what was watched on the desktop. Here's the support page about the feature: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9052667

Apparently videos watched on the desktop aren't counted correctly, but I imagine it's not worse than summing the durations.

Not only that, but now I watch all videos and listen to all podcasts at 1.5 to 3x speed. At some point I should accept the FOMO...

For me, a major part of ADHD management consists of forcing myself to do something, multiple times a day. It's work, learning, chores-like tasks, sport, hygiene, regular sleep, cold morning shower, unprocessed food preparation - pretty much everything that isn't immediately pleasurable.

I'm "unhappy" multiple times a day when I start doing something that doesn't usually have to be done right away. But it's often a choice not between doing something now or later, but doing something now, not never.

However weirdly this may sound - I constantly do things against myself, for myself. I don't get much satisfaction from finishing those tasks but my life quality has increased drastically and I wouldn't go back from moments of discomfort to an ongoing discomfort.

Oh wow this resonates - I'm exactly the same. I basically try to minimize the time I spend thinking on most things. I have to consciously tell myself "I'm going to stop thinking and just do this task". It's amazing how when you do this, all of the sudden all of the stuff that's on the back of your mind (chores, exercise, etc) just get done in time and your anxiety goes away

Same same.

I think I'm a highly functional adha person due to my mom being a very responsible person and also I started taking Ritalin 12 years ago.

I'm always wandering how it feels for normal people who get there shit done without any meds.

I also want to do fire because all those responsibilities and the fighting feels exchausting.

> how it feels for normal people who get there shit done

My perspective is that once I took a step back and really looked, I noticed almost nobody is getting ANY shit done, and perhaps that’s OK. I was just holding myself to unreasonable standards of what “shit done” is that I don’t hold other people to and that was the root cause of my exhaustion. Society progressing is really just a series of extremely tiny things with the occasional rare major event pushed up to human population scale, something that one individual can’t compete against without burning out.

I'm not saying there are absolutely no people out there who are actually getting shit done and making it look easy, and somehow never burning out, but they are by far the exception and in no way "normal" people (and in many cases they are ticking time bombs, but the fallout may be well hidden)

> I'm simply incapable of doing things I've set out to do. Simple things. Everything is difficult.

“Independent discharges of dopamine neurons (tonic or pacemaker firing) determine the motivation to respond to such cues. As a result of habitual intake of addictive drugs, dopamine receptors expressed in the brain are decreased, thereby reducing interest in activities not already stamped in by habitual rewards.”

From: Dopamine and Addiction | Annual Review of Psychology — https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev-psych-...

----

Edit:

I'd like to add a couple more ideas, because what you're describing in your article is spot on, and I believe can be generalized past your own experience.

> Another angle that makes this ever more distressing is that my memory is very, very fallible ... I can confidently say that I've done nothing I said I would do there.”

Herbert Simon says: “In an information-rich world, the wealth of information means a dearth of something else: a scarcity of whatever it is that information consumes. What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its recipients. Hence, a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention”.

As an information-addict myself, I've been meditating a lot about this topic. During the past two years I've been researching it from a psychological perspective (And for that, I'm grateful to @ericd for this HN comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24581016). I'll throw in some resources that I've came across during this journey, in case anyone finds them useful:

- Dr Gabor Mate: Addiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-APGWvYupU

- Dr. Anna Lembke: Understanding & Treating Addiction | Huberman Lab Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JLaF_4Tz8

- The book “The Molecule of More” by by Daniel Z. Lieberman and Michael E. Long.

- The book “The Shallows” by Nicholas Carr.

It should also be mentioned that the most addictive and dopaminergic drugs most people in the Anglosphere consume daily are the wide variety of pre-made pre-cooked fast food meals which are engineered for maximum palatability. These days this goes for just about everything that isn't bought in the grocery store in its purest form. Just about every product on the shelves these days is contaminated with engineered ingredients to get you a stronger feeling of reward so you come back for more.

“Talk to me about taste, and if this stuff tastes better, don’t run around trying to sell stuff that doesn’t taste good.” - Stephen Sanger, head of General Mills

You can search the web using that quote to begin your descent into the rabbit hole.

The food you eat does not just affect your body weight. It also affects your mental state.

Are you very familiar with ADHD? It's very much the same effect, except instead of substance abuse/addiction as the cause, it's a natural chronic deficit in stimulation.

I find this YouTube channel very informative (albeit cheesy): https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD

> Are you very familiar with ADHD?

Not really. But I'll check this, thanks!

Also from Huberman: "Controlling Your Dopamine For Motivation, Focus & Satisfaction" [1]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOF0crdyRU

I've read The Molecule of More and didn't consider it all too great of a read.

There were some correlations that didn't sit well with me - one, off the top of my head, was an implication that MDMA consumption could make me politically conservative.

I personally would recommend just Huberman as he covers Dopamine to a great extent.

Hi guys OP here. I abstained all day (yay!) until I was going to bed :( I've read through most comments here and want to clarify a few things

1. I tried to get diagnosed with adhd but my doc just prescribed me some meds (amphetamines I think). They seemed like they would work until the effect wore off and I stopped taking them.

2. I have never abused any drug in the past.

3. I know this is a non issue for a lot of you guys and rightly so. I know I'm well off compared to a lot of real drug addicts.

4. I'm kinda depressed I think?

After a day of reflecting, speaking to my grandparents, spending time in a ceremony with my parents, and at the end of the day compulsively opening hn (I didn't expect this post to have any comments, addiction just took over), I can say a few things (before forgetting them!).

Firstly, I had a lot of time on my hands today and spending it on personal relations has been good. And secondly staying away from my room in general is positive. Being alone in my room is almost certainly a negative. I want to practice programming and do projects before my masters so I don't know how Ill deal with it. I'll reply to other comments once I wake up. Its almost 2am now!

Thanks for all the comments and advice!

I did two things that greatly helped me.

1) I at least made an attempt at some of Cal Newport's suggestions in "Deep Work" and schedule working blocks for myself. I adopt a different posture, maybe wear different clothes, If you can afford to, get a second cheap laptop and use that only for work... And then go somewhere else physically. Even if it's just a different room.

2) Consider trying a few sessions of neurofeedback therapy. I did it in high school and really felt my ability to concentrate and think along a single track improve significantly. I can't guarantee anything but it's worth looking into.

Family, friends, community, church.

Here's what worked for me.

1. Ask yourself why do you think this is a problem and debug deeply. Maybe, after all, spending day watching videos is fine and what you want to do and the story that you don't is unnecessary.

2. Once you bring it to your conscious mind, you face a decision, do I want to watch videos and maybe learn something and relax, given that it comes with not delivering some things I promised and doing the thing I've been thinking I need to do for a long time, or do I want to do e.g. that thing.

3. Then do what you want. It requires no effort. You do what you want. I know habits and dopamine addiction narration, but there is no substance dependence here and the trick is that we cannot really hold contradicting beliefs in our conscious mind (we have plenty of them in the background but once you collide them actively you usually end up creating some micro-rationalization). But here your focus is consciously facing the choice. Plus there's plenty of dopamine for something that's been on todo for a long time.

I think we have completely different brains. What you said hits me like someone telling me to "be happy" when I'm depressed. It's not a matter of rationalization.

I am jealous this works for you. Life would be so much easier if my intrinsic motivation was well-aligned with my rational thinking.

If that's your experience most of the time, you might have ADHD. Here's a good (chest yet informative) introduction to the subject: https://m.youtube.com/c/HowtoADHD

I suspect they are not that different. Rationalization doesn't work, it's what creates "I should be doing X instead" in the first place.

I don't know if it can help you in whatever you want to achieve, but to me just realization that I always do what I want was huge. You can't honestly tell yourself you want to be doing this right now and that you don't want to be doing it right now. Once you unpack what does that mean in your head that you want it (requirements, consequences), whatever that means, you find some contradiction. But it took me some practice to be honest with myself and eliminating wishful thinking.

Accepting reality as it is, is huge. When you have in your head that if you spend time doing A you can't be doing B during this time, or that you can't achieve goal without going through steps you think are necessary, there really is not much left to do. Whatever you choose is fine, it's what you want.

E.g. I used to be thinking "I don't want to clean the kitchen, I have more interesting ideas for my life". Right now, it's a simple choice - don't clean the kitchen and have it dirty or clean it and have it cleaned up. Both are fine. Debugging gets complex when you have other people involved in your life etc but it still drops to the same thing.

Life's too short for telling yourself that you don't want to be doing what you are doing.[1]

If you take it deep enough, with our current understanding of the universe, there is no objective argument that working on renewable energy is better than watching youtube all day.

OK, I'm quitting this topic on HN, I've been selling this idea in many of my comments lately, just because it made my life so much better, but it's too verbose.

Btw if somebody knows this kind of thinking from a different source I would appreciate some pointers, because I'm sure I'm not the first one to come up with this but I haven't stumbled upon it yet and I would much prefer to point people to that direction.

1. And just to be clear I'm not ignoring very difficult situations that people are in saying that people are always doing what they want. The situation is difficult, whether that's hunger, war, illness or death. But that's reality. Given that terrible situation you decide to do something (or do nothing). It's what you decide, it's what you want. Telling yourself that you want to do something else that's not possible in that salutation is just wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is pure suffering. I strongly suggest stopping whatever you're doing if you think you don't want to be doing it and either stop doing that or fix the contradiction in your head.

No more verbose life views from comboy.

The broadest definition of addiction I've heard is "When you do something compulsively enough that it's affecting the rest of your life" - the implication being that everyone compulsively do things and that's fine but it's only really a problem when it damages your relationships, careers, happiness, etc. All brain stuff has a chemical component but chemical dependency/addiction is a particuarly dangerous subset of addiction, and not necessarily what I'm talking about here.

Many people here have the super power to focus on a problem relentlessly, it's kind of the trademark of the nerd stereotype - Addiction is the dark side of that superpower and one that I have to constantly keep in check. But I don't want to kill that superpower by squashing whatever thing I'm deep into at the moment, so I always use the litmus test - "Is this affecting the ability to keep my life in order?"

As long as there isn't a strong chemical component to whatever addiction you're trying to purge, a book like "Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg has a lot of practical ways to adjust your unconscious compulsions.

That "superpower" you mentioned is a good description of ADHD hyperfocus.

People with ADHD are naturally at a constant deficit in stimulation/dopamine. That's why we get distracted mid-conversation: the conversation wasn't stimulating enough to fill that deficit, so the brain started looking for more stimulation, thinking it could just multitask to compensate.

The deficit in simulation/dopamine is why people with ADHD can hyperfocus: as soon as there is a satisfying source of stimulation, the brain tries to squeeze out as much dopamine as it can.

"When you do something compulsively enough that it's affecting the rest of your life"

Similar to what I was told: "When you compulsively do something despite it having negative impacts on your life"

Yeah this is better actually, because "affecting" might be a positive thing :)

But I like framing it this way because if you only think about compulsion you're going to waste a lot of time shutting down things that don't actually matter. We're creatures of habit - we've gotten this far BECAUSE of compulsion, not in spite of it.

Quietly turning back on the noprocrast hacker news setting

Getting out of Facebook or before watching TV was rather easy, it was mostly uninteresting stuff I did not choose to watch.

Youtube and Hacker News got me. The quality, sometimes life-changing, content I have had access to there is really hard not to get into. Augmenting friction in accessing the content in the only way I found that works when I succeed convincing myself it is a real problem. This way it tilts the tediousness of accessing them towards the tediousness of boring tasks, which I have learned to find ways to make less tedious in turn. Trying to find balance in the addiction. Restraining from it in order to give time to interesting content to bubble up.

Also I have also been distancing so much from social activities only because they were slightly dissatisfying but instead of working on fixing them (which feels to me impossible because I lack the communication skills and I have an irrational core belief that no one can withstand even slight criticism) I'd rather spend time reading/watching about stuff that interests me on the internet. I manage to keep my life in order but I am not really investing in making something out of it. All the things I'd like to do irl, build a ecological passive house, build low tech devices, I lack the economical resources and social bonds to even start even though I am competent.

I don't know if I was always was a nerd (not the brilliant nerd type) or if I became one. Anyways I am doomed until this really becomes a hard problem in my life.

I used to be like this. I solved it by making my default activity reading (anything, stop if you don't enjoy it, novels are great) and working out. Just getting a week or month break is sometimes enough to break the habit (but best to do it in a way doesn't feel like an endurance challenge - that replaces it with something else fun or stimulating).

I can relate too. Throw in video games and beer too for good measure.

For me there was no big Aha moment or solution to getting distracted from what I actually want to do. It had been incremental steps, such as:

- focusing on consuming long form reading/videos

- heavily curating consumption with RSS, individual settings etc.

- disabling notifications of anything that is not important

- taking responsibility of things that I could avoid, engaging more

- regular exercise and sleep

Things like that. But again, incremental steps. Sometimes I shifted from one distraction to the next, but after recognizing this it becomes clearer what’s happening.

The results are quite powerful. Over just a couple of years I gained so much. I started to get bored of things that would distract me otherwise. I gained confidence and especially courage. I recognize undesirable behavior really quickly now and stopped fooling myself.

yes, that and go to sleep the moment you get the urge to eat lots of sugars, which usually means your brain needs rest.

I identify myself with many of the things mentioned in this post. I am an addict too. Here is something that has helped me to improve things a little bit. This is of course 100% anecdotal and it might not work on anyone different than me, but here it is anyway:

Initially I also used focus mode and different kinds of blocking apps to try to control my addiction. I configured them to block HN, reddit, lichess, twitter, youtube, etc, allowing me to use them only a few minutes at the end of the day and during the weekends. This approach didn't work so well. It worked fine for a few days but then the abstinence syndrome kicks in and I inevitably ended up "temporarily" disabling the blocks just to get that precious shot of dopamine before starting to work. Additionally, I was still wasting almost all my weekends and holidays consuming garbage.

So I got this idea, what if I tweak the approach a little bit: Instead of blocking the apps during "productive" time, what if I block them during leisure time, i.e at the end of the day and during the weekends. The thing with media consumption addiction is that it leaves me feeling that I don't have time to do anything. I neglect a lot of my personal tasks and goals. Work is something that I have to do somehow, after all I need a salary. Doing apartment chores, reading that book I bought or learning a new skill is something that can always wait. And it's during leisure time that I should be doing those things. So I decided to block media consumption during the weekends and try to do something more meaningful in that time. It's easier to deal with the abstinence syndrome, because the activities can be fun as well, they also produce (more slowly) dopamine, just that they are more meaningful to me. It's easier to skip silly but addictive YouTube videos to work on an interesting programming project than it is to skip it for a boring task at work. And there is also this feeling that it's only for a short time, I can get the dopamine shot later and that somehow tricks my brain. And then on Monday I already feel much better, and without feeling the need to consume that much media.

interesting tip thank you

We're all being sucked in the internet. It's so easy to become addict to video, podcasts, games, etc. nowadays that I would not be surprised if that becomes a major society issue.

I always thought in 20 years, Facebook (or its equivalent) will have warning labels similar to how cigarettes do now. People should be free to do as they please, but I would hope that as a society, we would at least inform people as to what the actual product is designed to do.

You could think of it like the nutrition labels on food. Imagine a pop up when you log onto reddit saying "this site on average engages users for 90-120 minutes per session". That would give you some forethought about how much value you're getting from the engagement and prompt you to make a different decision. Or at least a more informed decision.

Great. Another popup to dismiss!

Someone make this a browser extension!

The problem I have is that some of the content is really good. I have been able to lose weight consistently and easily because I found resources online that helped me understand the science and cut through all the bullshit that we are inundated with around nutrition. My confidence and results in investing are at an all time high because I can fill in the gaps of understanding with a range of experts on YouTube.

But, it does seems like an addiction when I want to accomplish a task and 20 minutes into that task I'm back on YouTube or forums looking for more interesting data.

What are your top recommendations for weight loss resources?

We may just as well call it the InterCage at this point.

Nets are for trapping prey, that part has been completed a long time ago.

Yeah I'm surprised there are lots of articles about keeping ipads from children, but not much about their parents.

There is increasing awareness that addiction and procrastination [1] are not indicative of laziness. Human beings are great at protecting their emotional core because it's essential to basic functioning. Addiction seems similar. Addicts seem to be attempting to escape something too (subjectively) difficult to face [2][3]. In my opinion it's often due to unresolved trauma.

When we don't have the emotional tools to resolve trauma from our past, we resort to coping mechanisms. While I'm not a therapist, I've had to deal with my fair share of trauma and have come to learn a lot about how trauma affects us and the way we deal (or fail to deal) with our day-to-day struggles.

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/smarter-living/why-you-pr... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park 3. https://nida.nih.gov/about-nida/noras-blog/2018/10/new-nida-...

I've been thinking more about addiction recently and how it affects us more than most people think. When most people think addiction they think of drugs. So, of course, they are not an addict.

But I believe we all are addicts to some degree and, at the very least, have the potential to become addicted to things.

Things I have been addicted to, in no particular order:

- Alcohol. No I wasn't an "alcoholic", but I continued to drink alcohol even though I knew it made me feel worse the next day etc. This one is very common.

- Cannabis. It turned me into a recluse and perpetuated a downward spiral into depression.

- Food. I became obese and thoroughly unfit due to my eating habits.

- Porn. It affected my real sex life which made me and my partner feel bad.

- Sex. I spent far too much of my time pursuing sex with multiple partners, broke many hearts and burnt many bridges along the way.

- Youtube (and previously TV). I watched it every night in bed and it caused me to have terrible sleep.

I'm not sure why so little attention is given to addiction. Obesity should simply be framed as food addiction. Nobody wants to be obese. It's uncomfortable, inconvenient, embarrassing. They all want to "lose weight". They can't because they are addicted to food. Making that clear would probably help people deal with it. It has certainly helped me in many cases to understand that I'm addicted to something.

I read a lot of the advice already on this comment thread but I have a fairly different take based on the path I've weaved through this world so far.

You're in control, the end. Give yourself grace when you find that you've strayed from your target. Classify things into "Crisis" and "Not A Crisis" and set up daily, hourly, etc redirections to knock out whatever falls into the crisis bucket before anything else.

As for me, my path has been from just how the author describes the feeling to fairly functional. Years of anguish, piles of notes on how to act vs actually acting any different. My suggestion to you is to write down a morning routine that redirects you into taking care of what will cause you anguish up front if not taken care of.

I've personally written software for me that literally text-to-voice's reminders and redirections to an earbud my morning routine tells me to put in first thing. Second thing says to enable "repeat mode" so it can chime in with redirections.

If you want something lightweight just on your PC that does the same thing, alter this bash one-liner to your heart's content. It's osx specific but there are other ways / commands to do this on linux or otherwise. I've personally written an android launcher / service that does this so I can have it while I walk around in the world but isn't in a state yet that would work for others. Hopefully this will help keep you on target. :D

while true; do say --rate 230 --voice Daniel "Stay on target"; sleep 18; done;

This also describes me so accurately I'm embarrassed.

The only solution I've found that isn't an impossible uphill battle against my lizard brain is... Be around people.

I'm not deep in an internet rabbit hole when I'm with another person. It's actually a motivator for me to live with a partner or roommates - they make me a 'better' person.

Maybe they make me ->A person<- rather than a brain hooked up to a doping device.

There's a lot of good literature and help out there.

I wrote this [1] specifically to help you understand some of what's going on - well, at least some views for those of us who feel passionate about technology but sometimes have unhealthy relationships with it.

You already touch on many of the issues in your post. I have submitted lists of other books here too (search through my history for Cal Newport for example) that deal with tech overuse, addiction, hoarding and so on. Hope it's useful.

[1] https://digitalvegan.net

We're in the same boat! But I fell for it, like, 15-20yrs ago. Have been restricting myself since, basically, to the web 1.0 level. I don't have broadband anymore, only limited plan, - this stops me from watching videos. This was a conscious step. After setting up some physical barriers it became easier to change my own mindset (I knew I didn't have such an iron will to begin with). Also, knowledge helps. For example, being concerned with own privacy, security and health, prevents me from using garbage like tiktok or instagram. There's also conventional wisdom which tells me to stop trying to catch on with everything (HN news stream, for example :) ). Although it was necessary for my line of work for quite a while, but in life it brings nothing but sense of miss or loss like "Oh I could've done this/involved with that/joined those projects/used this library/visited that conference/etc. Sorry if this comment turned into ramblings )

HN is somewhere in the middle of useful and interesting versus distracting and repetitive. It’s valuable enough for me to keep track of. I’ve noticed that I like it more through RSS. Because I don’t see upvotes and comment counts there.

Consider talking to a doctor about ADD? (Alternatively, get some Adderall somewhere and experiment.) Executive control is a distinct mental capability.

This. Even with all the addictive technologies around, this essay makes problems sound too extreme to not be at least worth evaluating for ADD. Especially the consistently poor working memory is a dead giveaway.

People forget AD(H)D is fairly common, regardless of if you think it's overdiagnosed or not. And with how technology has been turning everything into dopamine slot machines it will exaggerate the symptoms even more.

Please don't ever again recommend to someone with problems randomly that they should "get some amphetamine somewhere and experiment". Okay?

Eh, as I understand it this (Adderall "abuse") is fairly common and mostly doesn't have bad consequences.

Note that inability to concentrate reliably has fairly severe downsides as well, like (at the extremes) inability to hold a job. This is not good for your medical situation either!

Depending on person, "ask a roomie to try their meds" can be a lot more viable than "go and talk to a medical professional." And it comes with a safety valve - your roomie will presumably cut you off if you get problems. Plus the dosage will be predictable and there won't be random additions. Note that I didn't say to go try meth.

(Google "death by adderall". It's not hard to avoid.)

Of course if there's medical contraindications like blood pressure or heart conditions this is a bad idea, but first of all the side effect profile is pretty mild, and second if you have a medical condition you should already know to not take meds on the basis of random HNews recommendations. - Actually, they should know their preferred risk profile anyway. I'm just reminding them that the option exists.

This.

I’m a recovered amphetamine (Adderall) addict. I was enslaved to amphetamines for over 10 years. I started taking pills in college because they helped me focus and get things done, but I quickly fell into addiction and abuse.

Talked my psychiatrist into giving me ever higher doses. Frequently stole my wife’s ADHD medication after burning through all of my own. I couldn’t stop.

It all started (somewhat) innocently enough…

Yes it’s capable of giving you super powers at work, but it’s also really quite dangerous from an addiction standpoint.

What do you mean, these pills that make my kids suddenly have A grades and fun to hang out with are not risk free??

Agreed, though mostly because of external consequences like the war on drugs.

Even so, the rest of the advice is solid.

why, sounds like a great idea.

Maybe but it seems too common - does nearly everyone have ADD?

Nearly everyone is not a part of this conversation.

Technology - especially software - attracts people with ADHD traits like hyperfocus, so it's not a stretch to expect a higher percentage of ADHD brains on HN.

On top of that, "arguing with people on the internet" is an attractive source of stimulation for those of us with ADHD, meaning we will overrepresent ourselves in any discussion.

No. But, it feels like people seem to only be able to name a single condition. ADHD gets misapplied frequently. I only scanned the original article, but it was really evident that the individual has a complex situation deserving more than self-help.

To underline this point. There are almost weekly threads here which either either start with a mention of "ADHD", or someone posting a comment on "ADHD" along with how they manage it with self-help books. It is hard to find the right professional help, but it's something worth doing because it's probably the only thing that will solve the problems. We should encourage people to seek that help instead of only pointing to self-help articles.

The visible symptoms of ADHD (ADD is no longer a separate thing) are things normal people experience all the time.

ADHD is very poorly named. It has similar symptoms at times but it is categorically different because they come from severely compromised self-regulation across many facets. Emotional control, memory, focus, sensory processing, etc.

Many people with ADHD find ways to work around this by finding ways to create a structure they can work in. This contributes to the belief that ADHD can be solved by diligent, disciplined work. Especially because discipline is the solution to normal people’s issues with attention.

But the reality is ADHD not a lack of discipline, but the inability to have it in the first place. Some people manage, but many can’t and other people make moral judgements that anyone with ADHD isn’t trying hard enough.

Edit: I said this more clearly elsewhere:

The symptoms are not the disorder and don't come from the same mechanism that causes normal people to have difficultly paying attention sometimes.

For youtube specifically, I found this great snippet for ublock origin. It removes (almost) all recommendations in youtube, which makes it much easier to quit after just one video:

www.youtube.com###secondary

www.youtube.com##ytd-browse[page-subtype="home"] #primary

www.youtube.com##.ytp-show-tiles.ytp-endscreen-paginate.videowall-endscreen.ytp-player-content.html5-endscreen

Source: https://pawelurbanek.com/youtube-addiction-selfcontrol

The firefox/chrome extension Unhook provides these features as well, and gives you fine-grained controls over most of the addictive features on YouTube.

Second this. Even if you don't remove the other features, removing the comments alone is a godsend.

I'm not an addict, but I'm addict adjacent, literally and metaphorically. While it's good that the poster identified the problem, the cold turkey approach is not usually sufficient. Beating addiction by simply removing the thing you are addicted to is very difficult because it leaves a big hole in your life. You need to replace your addiction with something healthy. Andreas did very effectively because he found something that both occupied his time and gave him a new community.

Andreas Kling who created Serenity OS if anyone was wondering. He's been an inspiration to me for sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SerenityOS

For years I've tried to explain to people that working in tech, especially over time, is like having a job as a beer taster while living above a bar and hanging out with your drinking buddies all evening at that same bar, where an attractive bartender puts cocktails in front of you all night for free, all while trying not to become an alcoholic.

Any addict who said their plan for sobering up was to live like this would be told they are going to fail with 100% certainty.

I agree, sometimes I feel like I should become an electrician. When I have to do manual work, I do manual work. When I have to code...it can go in many directions.

Very well written article. Congrats on defeating your tech addiction this time.

It is amazing how much thought and effort goes into designing Web2.0 to keep delivering small dopamine hits. I too burn thru hours watching tech videos, browsing tech subreddits, looking for juicy HN posts and rarely come across articles about how the stickiness is engineered. Maybe I'm browsing the wrong stuff or maybe they're just too embarrassed to publish it.

I wrote a dealio a bit back which was pretty popular here on reducing addiction to the internet by diluting it via latency, like it's harder to get addicted to small beer than to liquor. People thought when they were voting for prohibition a century ago that they were voting for banning liquor and leaving beer alone: I tend to think _that_ idea wasn't so incredibly bad, actually

https://howonlee.github.io/2020/02/12/I-20Add-2020-20Seconds...

I've been annoyed for a good while that online videos seem to be pretty resistant because of their variable lengths to the per-request futzing I've been doing. I probably need to get a pihole and inject latency at network level on streaming stuff, too, but this is pretty complicated and I have flatmates

Personally I've found that trying to limit hours spent on $badthing is not as effective as requiring hours spent on $goodthing. (Note that "good" here is shorthand for whatever you find to be more rewarding in the long term, not a universal or moral concept.) For example, instead of saying I will spend no more than X hours on social media or video games, I say that I will spend no less than Y hours on exercise or craft hobbies. The key is to center the good things and fit the bad things around those, instead of the other way around. Make a schedule if you have to. Some people find that making a commitment to other people - e.g. a workout buddy, a craft guild - can help. Start small, with goals that are easier to achieve (though they'll still require some exercise of will). As your self-discipline improves, you can change the balance accordingly.

Hello fellow addict!

Other than just blanket banning stuff (which never works for me), I've tried to make reducing my technical consumption into something interesting. Listening to podcasts on an iPod adds friction, as does writing on an old Psion device. I bullet journal too, it's a maintainable balance right now. Even reading books, any book, nothing technical or what I "should be learning" if I'm not up for it. They're all a nice experience, with (for me) just enough tech involved for it to be sustainable and fun. I've failed too many times to just ban stuff or "not look at a screen".

I love the outdoors when I'm out there, but when someone suggests to just go outside instead of watching a video or playing a game, I just feel guilt and resent the outdoors a little more. Old tech has been a nice, interesting bridge.

I gamed a lot (I think 6-8h per day) but little more than a month ago I just stopped. Funny thing is my life didn't change. I'm still not any more creative or achieving anything. I just watch more youtube, 9gag and other random sites. I watch some TV series. I just replaced one filler with another. If I ban those I probably move to reading SF books and doing Sudoku or Solitaire or buying and putting together Lego's.

Your habits are not the problem by themselves. The problem is that your body and mind believes you have nothing better to do. Even though you can reason that there are other things worth doing your emotional self just doesn't buy it.

I feel the pain of internet vices.

What worked for me recently (for the last 4 months only - so can't claim victory yet) was exercise and a goal (so I don't bail). Decided to run a half marathon. Found a training plan where I run 5 days a week.

- Now I have to get up at 7am (Before: 8.55am for 9am start) - If I don't get to bed by 11:30pm I feel lousy running (Before: 2-4am bedtime) - And it makes me shower and eat breakfast (Before: no shower, no food)

It's basically added a bunch of structure to my day, which has really helped with work

It seems like the OP had/has an addiction to gaming videos (the only hint was something about esports). I think about this a lot... is all video content considered equal if you had a near addiction level affinity for it?

Watching Fortnite/Minecraft/Roblox videos all night is a zero sum activity... you might get better at the that particular game, but it's a useless skill for 99.999% of us (child labor issues aside). On the other hand, if you use that time learning an actual skill or absorbing general useful information, I think there might be an argument that it's time well spent.

When we are young, we have an incredible ability to grind on things, especially when sleep deprived. As we get older, that becomes much harder and our productivity inevitably falls. I'm finding more and more that I have to go with my bursts of motivation when it hits and ride that wave as far as possible. A little sleep depravation here and there isn't an issue.

All of this falls apart when your life is negatively impacted and you are not adequately managing your health, responsibilities and/or achieving your goals. To sum it up, I don't think an "addiction" to useful information is a bad thing. We live in an unprecedented time of nearly limitless access to information. To have someone not only tell you the information you want to know, but also demonstrate it is game changing. Addictions are bad, but watching Youtube can lead to incredible learning momentum. Achieving that with a balanced life is something I personally strive for.

I watch a lot of YouTube because I like non-fiction content over the fiction on Netflix. I used to like the documentaries on Netflix but they all seem to have a similar formula and sensationalism. I like how-to content which gives me inspiration to take on projects. I could see YouTube becoming an issue for me if I got sucked down a rabbit hole that didn't have any meaningful ends. But for me if consuming YouTube content leads to meaningful ends, it's not an issue.

I suggest an accountability partner. The biggest problem I've had with that is that my partners didn't have it as badly as me, so they didn't understand.

The idea is you check in once a day (10 minutes or so), and just talk about what you've achieved, where you've failed, etc. It can be very effective.

I've done some pretty extreme things in the past, such as hired a "coach" who would hold me financially responsible if I didn't send proof that I got up and walked the dog to the ATM machine by 8 am every morning. (we had complex rules and she had a check made out to charity, ready to send if I didn't achieve what I was supposed to) It was extremely effective while I did it, but only for really measurable things.

I use a timer lock to keep cannabis locked up for a few days at a time, so I don't have to quit it (I think it is good for my creativity as well as for seeing "the big picture" and finding the positive, but it is bad if it is tempting me to use it while I should be working)

If you are interested in getting a group together to do accountability partners, get in touch. (rjbrown at google's mail service)

I can relate to this.

My understanding is you're addicted to dopamine.

You need a dopamine fast. Just take away all your dopamine sources for a 1 day, or 1 week. And then self reflect on its effects on you.

The repeat it every once in a while or whenever you need it.

1 day a week. Or 1 week per month. Something like that.

You've encouraged me to do the same. I'm very unhappy with my own addiction to youtube and social media. Though its more like 2 hours per day maybe

Did you actually read the OP? The author describes times when they abstained from Reddit/YouTube and going cold turkey.

I have a bit of the same problem. I "solve it" by removing all video recommendations and blanking out the Home page. My YouTube watching is now constrained to the Subscriptions tab! I feel this lets me get the positives from YouTube, and limits my potential for misuse.

I don't use the YouTube app on mobile (instead using Firefox), so I'm able to use UBlock's cosmetic filters to remove the 'dangerous' elements. Recently the filter changed and I got sucked into recommended videos again (with significantly increased watchtime the last month or so). This post made me fix it again!

Also, my phone's Wellbeing settings allows set time restrictions on specific apps. It's a bit too easy to "game", but at least it gives me some feedback on how much time I spend on things.

But honestly, we're only animals: slacking off is a desired trait. We just need to put in some guardrails to avoid overindulgence. Good luck! :-)

Set out a life goal. Think hard about what you can achieve in that time if you weren't watching videos. This is how you win.

I deeply resonate with this article. It's like the author read my mind.

ADHD feels really big and complicated as it lives in my brain, and it's always difficult to grapple with the question of, "Am I really addicted and need help for that, or is it my ADHD and need help for that?"

My best wishes go out to the author. I feel you.

Try the Buddhist meditation technique of Maranasti where you meditate on Death. We live like we are going to live forever and waste a lot of our life doing stuff we would regret doing on our deathbeds. Meditating every morning that you are going to die has profound impact on how you live your life.

Your post tells me you may be suffering from ADHD. Consider reading this book: Delivered from Distraction: Getting the Most Out of Life with Attention Deficit Disorder Paperback – 27 Dec. 2005 by M D Edward M Hallowell M D (Author), John J Ratey (Author)

If it strikes a chord, think of seeing your doctor about this.

I know cold turkey works for some people, but I’d never recommend it unless it’s truly an emergency (immediate danger of harm) and you have a support system around you to hold you to it.

The truth is, people are obstinate about change and also infinitely adaptable. So, make the changes small so you can get over the hump, and then stick with it ferociously. In 2 weeks it’ll be second nature.

You gotta have something fulfilling in your life away from a screen. Cooking, pets, exercise, relationships, kids. It may seem impossible to get there from where you are, I’d start with exercise. Great thing about exercise is it’s entirely fungible and each incremental increase is good. Start with anything and do it /before/ you do technology. Then don’t worry about it again until tomorrow.

I feel for this writer. Whoever you are - you might be struggling but you are also so aware, even when you say you're not, and that's the first step if you do want to change. I imagine there are legions of others going through the same cycles that can continue this blissful mindless existence day after day, but they may eventually look back and wonder what their life was even for.

My two cents - turn inwards for a little while. Fascinate yourself with yourself. Learn everything about yourself. From there you will find a purpose, which I think is what you're lacking so you let others fill up that space.

Meditating can help you separate all these stories you have about yourself from the true you, which is beyond words. Sit in silence and learn what it's telling you.

The paper "Large-Scale Study of Curiosity-Driven Learning"[1] talks about AI that likes to take actions that yield results that it didn't predict.

The idea is that curiosity is good intrinsic reward function. The problem though is that it can get stuck doing something that is completely unpredictable, like changing the channel on a TV.

I think this explains a lot about human addiction to endless videos as well. Ironically I learned about this from a YouTube video[2].

[1] https://pathak22.github.io/large-scale-curiosity/

[2] https://youtu.be/fzuYEStsQxc

It could be a symptom of a persistent depression disorder, it is for me.

EDIT: I've been blocked from replying

Because lack of ability to concentrate, lack of motivation, and engaging in repetitive behaviour because it's the only thing that makes you not bored, are all symptoms of it

Could you elaborate a bit on what makes you think that what's it could be ?

There's nothing wrong with being an addict. I prefer hanging out with addicts than with persons without addictions.

Become a Christian! It's a religion of slaves, three Popes were freedmen, it's a religion of slaves! Addicts are slaves!

I will say that despite disbelieving the miracles entirely on scientific grounds, I started going to a Protestant service to develop a work ethic. And it worked!

And the second thing I recommend is getting screened for Attention Deficit Disorder. Find a psych who has it too, like Dr. Matthew Stubblefield in California (show him this post), there's others too. So that will consolidate your addiction into depending on a single substance--under medical supervision--and be sated.

I used to waste a lot of time (I still do, but less and in a more functional way) sounds cliche, but something that helped me a lot was the book atomic habits, focusing on systems rather than in pure force of will.

Related to this point, it's to make it harder to access your bad habits and easier to access the ones you want to develop.

A DNS blocker it's great for things like this. I even have 2 dual booted systems one with custom DNS restrictions, and another one for play and relax.

I don't think YouTube, games or Netflix it's bad. The key part it's intentionality, schedule and self awareness of why are you doing the thing your doing, and don't fall into autopilot

I can totally see how this can derail your life. The algorithms are there to give you videos to keep you watching and the time can really fly by.

You mentioned going cold turkey, I think it's a good idea, but might be hard to implement as all or nothing approaches are prone to relapses.

You can use watchlimits.com if you are interested in setting limits for your watching, but still being able to watch some. For example youtube content is often useful in life, so it's good to have some access to it. Without a tool like this, just watching "one" helpful video could be cause a relapse to a whole evening watching.

Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway: I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly. Christianity and Judaism both have excellent resources. Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.

Edit: for those asking for specific recommendations. It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment. However, I can suggest that you investigate Mussar and look up some books in English.

“Musar is a path of contemplative practices and exercises that have evolved over the past thousand years to help an individual soul to pinpoint and then to break through the barriers that surround and obstruct the flow of inner light in our lives. Musar is a treasury of techniques and understandings that offers immensely valuable guidance for the journey of our lives.... The goal of Musar practice is to release the light of holiness that lives within the soul. The roots of all of our thoughts and actions can be traced to the depths of the soul, beyond the reach of the light of consciousness, and so the methods Musar provides include meditations, guided contemplations, exercises and chants that are all intended to penetrate down to the darkness of the subconscious, to bring about change right at the root of our nature.“

The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with - doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions. And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy.

So I'd personally recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion. Bertrand Russell (also known for his mathematical work) is an excellent place to start.

EDIT: For those who disagree, I'd recommend a Russell's essay "Why I Am Not A Christian" [0]. It is quite short and readable.

https://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html

>recommend philosophy to people, instead of religion

Religion is philosophy, plus ritual and aesthetics. It's the set of philosophies that have survived the ravages of time. It's a set of philosophies that are so useful to live by, that these philosophies have survived through books and rituals for millennia. Or put another way, these philosophies are so incredibly effective, that people are surviving today precisely because they've lived by those philosophies, and the only reason we know of these philosophies is because they are survived by, and helped to survive, the people who've passed and continue to pass them down to others.

There existed philosophies you've never heard of, that are dead, because they died with the people who've followed them. Is it just chance? Is it because the surviving philosophies are better? Who knows. But if you're a betting man, you should bet on those surviving philosophies being actually better, more useful, more conducive to survival.

>the focus on "removing the doubt"

I think this is a focus exclusive to "nu-Christian" Anglosphere denominations, primarily American ones, and their focus is made a spectacle of because: (1) their focus is understandably cringe and the outrage is entertaining (2) the spectacle is used as a tool to de-legitimize religion as a whole, especially Christianity.

Buddhism encourages doubt (in most lineages). There is a sutta where the Buddha said:

> “You have a right to be confused. This is a confusing situation. Do not take anything on trust merely because it has passed down through tradition, or because your teachers say it, or because your elders have taught you, or because it’s written in some famous scripture. When you have seen it and experienced it for yourself to be right and true, then you can accept it.”

That's only true on the folk-religion side of things. I can't speak to other faiths, but serious Christian thought has always engaged with doubt.

That's kind of a strawman. Serious Catholic thought (John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Pope Benedict, etc) doesn't try to "remove the doubt" at all. I highly recommend Ratzinger / Benedict for modern text, and the great contemplatives for non-modern texts. They grapple with doubt and all other tricky subjects head on, and have a broad (and in my opinion accurate and subtle) view of the journey of life.

> The problem I have with religion is the focus on "removing the doubt", which I strongly disagree with

This isn't the case as often as you might think. Consider religions like Unitarianism, for example. You can also make a strong case that the doubt is baked foundationally into Christianity itself-- consider Zizek's readings of Chesterton and Hegel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEuY46p5yH4

> And as soon as you remove the doubt ban, you don't really have a religion anymore, but a philosophy

Lots of philosophers were/are extremely religious

>doubting a god's existance is a major no-no in most popular religions

This is certainly not true of the Christianity that I've been witness to all my life. In those circles, doubt is a given - an intrinsic component of the inquisitive human mind - and doubt is basically the core of all faith. If there's no room for doubt, there's no room for faith.

That's why many of us opt for eastern traditions - which are generally pretty good at separating the philosophical aspects from the belief aspects.

I mean a big chunk of Christian teaching is about faith. It’s not like Christianity teaches “you believe in god? Good, let move on to other stuff now”.

Religion is a modern word. Religious people did not refer to them as religious before. It was all part of life itself.

> I recommend religion and religious teachings which address this and many other daily worldly issues perfectly.

This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.

To me, Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones. If you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.

However, IF you are a religious person, and find meaning in your religious books, then take the win, and enjoy that path. It's just that it's not a path everyone can take.

I mean, I used to be an atheist. Like, going to Richard Dawkins on campus, sneering at how stupid Christians were rolling my eyes at every little thing atheist. For a good ten to fifteen years. Then I realized it was terrible for my mental health and just got over myself and adopted more of a Pascal’s Wager outlook. Like, I frankly don’t give a damn about the truth or falsity of religion anymore. That’s not the point. It lets me act as if my life has meaning regardless of whether or not that’s true, which even when I directly reflect on it is a small amount of comfort insulating me from the yawning abyss of existential terror I felt throughout all of my 20s and half of my teens.

If pressed I guess I’ll say it’s unlikely to be true. But that’s not the point. I don’t even care to explain the point really. But both me and my wife ran Meetup groups about being atheist and eventually decided reading Christian philosophy and teachings was a better bet than the slow crushing millstone of the weight of the universe awaiting me behind the curtain of materialism.

There’s a lot of really bad stuff and I think Christianity needs reforming, but I still think it’s the better long term bet in terms of the wellbeing of me and my future generations.

I am also a non-believer, but I think there is room for religion even for those who have a difficult time with the "fairy tale" aspect of it. Personally, I do not, but I'm thinking about giving it a shot.

The thing is that the stories in religious books help paint a picture of life and offer anecdotes on how one can navigate it. There is no need to look for enlightenment, just practical advice on how to deal with tough life situations and help you find motivation and strength to power through. Thousands of years of observing and documenting people's lives through stories and metaphors has value, even for us non-believers.

I think you'd even be surprised how many people who regularly attend church services don't actually believe in the mystic aspect of it all; it's the community and guidance that have the most value to them.

You really don't see the difference between popular fiction and cultural texts that have survived for thousands of years?

How do you feel about The Iliad, Plato's dialogues, the Mahabharata, Tao Te Ching, or the Epic of Gilgamesh? Do they also offer "no more meaning in your world" than modern fantasy novels?

I didn't think being an atheist meant closing ones mind to human culture. Guess I've been doing it wrong.

I disagree - I do not believe in any organized religion but I do like the Bible - almost all of Western society is built on it so there is a power in the words as you're tapping into something fundamental that's been bounced around culture for centuries. I dip into it occasionally and find some passage that really speaks to me.

Admittedly I do ignore parts of it - there's a lot of "wives should be obedient" stuff in there that has not aged well for instance - and I read it as God representing something like the Chinese Dao - IE the impersonal and immaterial laws of nature, the way that things unfold, and faith in God being an active version of the Stoic idea that you can't change the things you don't have control over, so just let it be.

To me, Theology is really philosophy + God. That's kinda the beauty of it, you can interpret it however you like or however it fits you at the time. If you don't want the + God right now, just consider the philosophy.

>Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view

Plato's The Cave allegory is relevant, even though no one would ever live in a cave like that and it's obviously fiction. Some people treat the Bible as a historical text, but most don't. Some people believe the earth is flat too, there's always that 10-20%.

Having said that, I tried reading the Bible but I couldn't get through all the begats. I do like hearing honest people discuss it though. Like anything, it can certainly be weaponized.

I think it can be interesting to approach religious teachings from a perennialist mindset: what’s common between all religions.

There is a lot to learn about life and human nature in religion. You don’t have to believe in an afterlife or practice dogma to get something out of it.

In context, your reply sounds like a negative take, but I find it rather positive.

I've always found good fiction enlightening. There is no need to be so serious about it.

My biggest criticism of religion is the very boundary drawn between fiction and scripture: that adherents to a religion must treat fiction as if it is reality.

All too often, that means obsessing over obedience to a structure of rules/dogma, instead of confronting the reality right in front of us; like voting to restrict gay marriage so God will bless our country, instead of learning to empathize with people around us to become a better community.

The difference between Harry Potter and most religious texts is that the religious texts are often the result of thousands of years of evolutionary processes which refine them, and the people who have followed them have survived/thrived.

It doesn't matter if the Bible/Koran/whatever is a fact or not. Religious beliefs/texts are an extension of human evolution and should be seen that way. Questioning their wisdom in helping humans thrive is like questioning the value of arms.

IMO, one benefit of religion that is difficult to capture anywhere else is that it creates a mutually supportive community. I personally can't get over sacrificing my own intellectual honesty for the sake in group acceptance, but in most cases, I do think this is a trade off worth making. Secular Jews seem to be able to have it both ways, though I'm not sure this is something easily replicable.

> This advice simply doesn't work if the recipient is an atheist.

Then try Buddhism? More of a philosophy than a religion, and seems to have hit on the idea thousands of years ago that most problems in humanity are to do with mental illness of one sort or another.

> f you read enough fiction on a shared topic, you'll be able to pull the same number of 'enlightening' quotes from those books as religious people can from their own sacred tomes.

In fact, Harry Potter And The Sacred Text does exactly that!

I’ve known plenty of people who get a ton of meaning out of fictional works too. Just because you view it as fictional doesn’t mean it can’t have meaning.

I hold spirituality to be a choice to hold things sacred. Almost everyone holds something sacred, whether it's family bonds or whatever. You can also choose to hold more things sacred, even the entire world, without believing in divinities.

> Religious texts are made up fiction that hold no more meaning in my world view than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones

I have been downvoted many times (not sure why?) for stating this on HN, but I will state it again:

It's sad that this line of thinking has taken over the modern time. We now have "science", so we don't need any of that silly stuff like "philosophy" or "art" or "religion". All can be explained through the scientific method and all other branches of human intellect are null and avoid.

Of course, this comes from the new Atheists who influenced a lot of the younger generation years a go when they started but their ideas actually stems from older philosophers who shaped the modern day thinking.

Mainly Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche (who was also influenced by Feuerbach), Jean Paul Sartre and Michel Foucault.

For example, What did Jean-Paul Sartre say? "Existence precedes essence" and you can _clearly_ see how this has affected the modern Atheism mentality in the 21st century.

If existence precedes essence, then everything is relative and nothing can be objective and absolute; thus to claim things such as objective morality in the way that religion does is meaningless.

Don't forget that Sartre said: "If God exists, I can't be free, but I am free. Therefore God does not exist". Once again, if you look carefully enough, you absolutely see this in the modern world. The New Atheists for example, took all their ideas and spread them from these philosophers. What was Hitchen's famous quote? He would constantly regurgitate Karl Marx: "Religion is the opium of the people" which again.. is rooted from Sartre philosophy.

There is a great talk about this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KQcm0Mi5To

More to it, to anyone who claims religious people are intellectual inept, I would simply challenge you to read any of the material written by the intellectuals of the tradition. For example, for Christianity they would be: Augustine of Hippo, Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas or John Henry Newman and tell me you're dealing with someone who has suspended his critical faculties.

You are welcome to disagree with them of course, but to claim that we should simply replace these materials with math books is disingenuous.

Just my 2c.

No need for

> Knowing that HN is generally against it, I say it anyway

I am actually on the contrarian side of you, but thanks for putting you out there. I understand and respect your point and everything, but there is one thing, that I want to put out regarding what you said. To state the following, is quite problematic:

> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.

Without going into detail, for every profession, there are people who are good and bad at it. This has nothing to do with any background or anything. The difference with psychologists and priests/ missionaries/ etc. is, that one is certified and the other is not necessarily certified. This makes a huge difference in liability of the term/ role and it's rather dangerous to put them in the same bag. And I don't think to make this distinction is not dismissive.

Religion for a modern person with the easy access to the knowledge we now have is effectively just being intellectually lazy. Some people do need help right now, but I don’t think religions are any better than other addiction resources. AA gets a pass for me because I know atheists that used it and the religious component is easy to ignore. AA works because of the group and accountability, not faith in some higher power.

Anyway, not to be insulting, but it is all a bunch of made up nonsense for a time when we did not have actual explanatory knowledge for our existence and universe. We do now. Religion and its institutions are dying out in industrialized nations because they have lost their claim to having all the answers.

Are you saying that we (collectively) or at least you know why we exist and the meaning of life?

> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists but are generally dismissed by non-believers.

Citation not required, as long as you believe, assumedly?

> It’s always best to find your own path according to the religion of your parents and environment.

That ship sailed a while ago, my parents aren't religious, and I don't know any religious people.

How do I get the psychological benefits without having belief? Let me lay a story on you:

I fell in love with this girl who I had known on/off for a long time. I found out she was an escort (quietly but distinctly confirmed payment-for-sex) in her spare time (she was a student when this all happened). This was really upsetting and had me very distraught. I simultaneously could see a life with her, but also felt disgusted at the escorting.

I wished I could speak with my grandfather about it. I knew he'd know what to tell me. But he had recently passed away. "Well, what did I like about Grandpa? Could I find a substitute? I need like, an old person who has reliable wisdom and experience, not just some wino who has hung on. Why isn't this a thing? An old person a community can approach for advice on..."

"Oh I think I need a priest."

When I went looking for one though, it was all about accepting Jesus into my heart and spiritual learnings and miracles that I must accept literally happened, etc. Real hard to find the "old wise person who can help me navigate this thing".

There’s this Western conception of Buddhism that stripes away a lot of the religious beliefs—Siddhartha wasn’t divine at all, there is no Amitabha, Ksitigarbha is a folk tale. The emphasis is all on practice. Meditation, the 4 noble truths, Middle Way, etc.

This doesn’t represent true Buddhism like Asians would recognize it, but I think it does highlight how you can build a practice and adopt the world outlook without the supernatural.

A low-level Zen inspired practice may be what you’re looking for

> Religious scholars have actually been the best psychologists

Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?

They are just stating their opinion in an 100% neutral way. You are free to ignore it. People give "unsolicited advice" here all the time. It is a forum where people post things for others to read. Why do people get so easily upset whenever the word "religion" is displayed, heard or even implied?

>Any sources that will back this claim? Oh wait, you don't need facts. Do you give this sort of unsolicited religious advice to everyone or do you specifically choose people who are troubled?

I mean, there's a fairly strong Darwinistic argument for the validity of certain religions. Very few belief systems have survived a hostile environment for anywhere near as long as the big religions.

If religious belief systems are "wrong" (in the sense of being useful for navigating the world, not in the sense of satisfying certain conditions of symbolic logic and reasoning), then why have these religions triumphed over secularism time and time again?

I'd still consider myself an atheist, but even then I'd be careful to be so dismissive of belief systems that have proven themselves over the course of millennia to be incredibly powerful, enlightening and enriching.

I’m sure I’ve read a few dozen of the same old AA debates on HN, but, yeah it worked for my old man.

AA, in particular the serenity prayer, has at least some overlap with the more tech friendly pursuit of Stoic philosophy.

“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”

An alternate to religion is Meditation. IMO, a lot of spiritual practices share very similar mental mechanics (eg mantras and prayers, various forms of fasting, support networks, etc)

Got anything more specific to recommend? I'd like to read the main books of the main religions eventually out of personal culture, but they won't get to the top of the reading pile any time soon. Meanwhile, I'm sure procrastination, motivation and discipline are behaviors that religious scholars had to develop even in a pre-Internet world so I'm sure there are interesting takes written on the subject. I recall some reknown writer from a few centuries (like 16th/17th century?) writing about his struggles with procrastination and how he eliminated distractions (lol!) from his working environment.

Islam also has significant things to say on the issue. Hinduism and Buddhism likely have insights as well.

Zoroastrianism may also have something to offer here. Maybe it's time to revive it.

Buddhism also has a well developed psychological system that everyone seems to ignore

And for atheists like me, you can still learn a lot from religions. I got a lot out of Alain de Botton's "Religion for Atheists" https://www.librarything.com/work/11370617/book/89008159

I'm not against religion, but you just want to add you don't need religion to get what I think is the good core of religions: healing stories and narratives, texts, mantras, rituals that help you in the moment, a community which shares your perspective and in the end, an explanation for existential dread, horrible things happenings and a way to get meaning.

You can find it in humanism, you can find it in secular philosophy, you can get therapy, you can find it in social political communities, it's in many places. You can even get some old bearded dude tell you what to do if that's what you need.

Religion is just one way to have faith.

The bible is a collection of many books and resources by various authors. It contains valuable ideas and experience which have survived the centuries. Many religious people however like it to be a 'single black & white truth of the all-mighty invisible ghost who says you are a guilty person'.

For me the bible is the same as any other (old) book where people write about their life experience. A good example is 'Meditations' by Marcus Aurelius. There is a lot of wisdom in it, and I have read it more than once over the years. It makes you reflect on your own life and decisions you make.

I've never had anything against religion and know it is good for my family but there's just no way I'll ever get over my skepticism so it's not a choice. I think most nonreligious people are the same

christianity is most certainly not the solution, therapy is

Religious beliefes provide a strong moral compass as a semi-coherent set that lets you define stances about a lot of things in your life without having to gs through the hassle and difficulties of building them. As long as it's a serious belief and adherence to the provided guidelines and not just posturing used to justify decadent conducts.

I am not religious and personally i think is best to develop this on your own than taking a prepackaged system, but the utility and practicality of having ssmething already done and battle-tested is undeniable.

Just like you don't need to reinvent the wheel and write a complex library on your own when there's one available, sometimes is best to just use a prepackaged beliefs set and moral system to follow.

Many people are even unable to produce that on their own and epd up disparaged, aimless, living their lives without any understanding of right, wrong, good, bad, moral, immoral.

For what religions are and what they do provide, i personally think some branches of buddhism are better, like the Sokka Gakkai International's approach provides.

I don't agree with the sentence that religious scholars are the best psychologists because they only can provide guidance inside what fits this prepackaged framework-for-living they adopted, and in many many cases (i.e. mentall illnesses, deep issues, moral hardship in grey areas, etc) they are unable to effectively help in any significant way.

Good news is that psychology isn't incompatible with religion and both can coexist peacefully, and one can get the best of both worlds wathout thinking one is best; they work in different ways and provide different things, and IMO they aren't directly comparable, as a psychologist cannot help you very well in terms of religion, and a religious scholar cannot help you very well in terms of psychology (except for the thinfs that fit witin the religious framework chosen).

So all in all, i agree that religion as a valid choice and should be part of discourse, as sometimes it can very well be the best course of action.

Just don't agree with throwing blanket statements of what's best or not in a world as plastic and complex as the one we live in.

There are 'religious but not spiritual' groups for those who appreciate the structure of religion in their life but who don't believe in God. Atheist Quakers are an established group, and some Jewish groups seem close to an atheistic religion.

For those of you complaining about SnowHill9902 recommending religion, please check out Optimize.me (free) for something secular. It's still, IMO, the best collection of practical self-help knowledge and insight available on the internet.

As someone who was religious when they are younger but no longer, why? I used to be a devout Christian until I went exploring the world and saw the unreal amount of massive suffering, imbedded greed etc; If god is real, he is a cruel god.

We have the technology and means to ensure every person on this earth does not go hungry and has a safe place to sleep at night. But humans do human stuff.

You probably pass plenty of homeless in your daily life and never look/think of them again. Yet somehow religion constantly preaches harmony and giving to others. Most religious people I know are inherently greedy and abide by Capitalistic morals and act as such.

I guess I could create a bubble for myself and not care about others at an inherently deep level like most humans on earth do.

What would a religious Scholar/Teachings do for me if I can plainly see that teachings are only followed when convenient or warped to fit my world narrative? What would you suggest?

Nothing quite like fear of eternal damnation to motivate oneself.

Can you be a little more specific?

Yikes

I have this problem too. The thing I've noticed about the people that do have focus is that they tend to work strictly 9-6 only. If I have a task to do at 3pm my excuse for distraction is that I'll just work late again or work on the weekend, so I have lots of time. If I know I have to leave at 6pm for an event I'll focus and get the task done. Working from home has been a huge problem as its hard to define boundaries and working after dinner or weekends has become normal (when I say working I mean browsing of course)

This helps me a lot:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/news-feed-era...

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicat...

You're speaking for many people in your situation, but my question would be, do you really feel good doing what you're doing? Especially when the day is over and you get into bed, do you have moments of hating yourself for wasting the day? If that "regret" occurs to you, then that should be your motivation to not indulge (if you can call it that) in the activities that are not useful or beneficial for your future.

When you stop being able to participate, know anything about, learn about, or do anything else in a community without the internet, what other choice do you have?

Okay, this might get downvoted, but posts like this are exactly why my co-founder wrote a big series on addiction in general and Internet addiction in particular.

For what it's worth, here it is: https://www.deprocrastination.co/blog/what-is-addiction

Happy to answer any comments, questions, etc

I'm curious to know whether OP has experienced full on addiction to substances, gambling or sex. Because what he's describing does not seem to be any of those things, more about complaints that Youtube's recommendation algorithm is causing him to stay on that platform for hours. I don't know what other "pleasures' he is alluding to but I could infer here and say OP is male and he is probably referring to internet pornography.

All of these things could very well be what you end up doing but its really up to the individual to make the choices and change. You can't really do this reading an article like this nor can you find any solace by identifying others with your problem because it quickly becomes Wounded Club.

Instead of growing wiser, you stay wounded, thinking there is something wrong with you and you just end up like OP, watching youtube for hours on end, reading hackernews/reddit comments. If this is something you like to change then you need to take action. Without action all the advice in the world will do you squat.

Unfortunately, as of late, its become fashionable and quite profitable to humblebrag about non-issues. Do you really think that if OP's behavior is possible if their life depended on it? I think not.

One is too lazy to make a change then who's at fault? You can throw whatever 4 letter medical term and write entire books on it. It won't matter. If it is to be then its up to me.

You're largely right, but I think you're underestimating the cognitive deficits that come with ADHD, particularly executive function.

The key to breaking through mental barriers as an ADHD-sufferer is usually not more will-power or less laziness, though one must at least want to change. The key is externalization -- that is, building external cues, props, and guardrails into one's life to help one stay on task in the moment - whether that means doing work or resting. We have trouble doing both proportionately.

Some people say they've had great success taking time every Sunday evening to review the past week and make adjustments -- whether that be putting a post-it note on the computer, installing a browser extension, setting a series of reminders, or any number of innovative ideas. Whatever helps you externalize the decisions you'll need to make in the moment.

I didn't mean to take a swipe at ADHD but point out that dwelling on problems isn't going change things. I'm glad you laid out actually a really good solution.

Curious to know where you got this strategy from, think its a great!

Your critique of this "Wounded Club" mentality is well placed and well taken but man this is like the least sympathetic response possible.

Yes, we should take responsibility for improving our lives, especially in the face of clear signals that a change is needed. But, did it occur to you that this post was indeed OP taking responsibility for their suffering and a first step towards improvement?

It takes a significant measure of courage and vulnerability to publish this confession OP has written. We can be pedantic about whether or not OP is clinically addicted to anything, but I see this post as a positive step in the same direction of healing/improvement you emphasized.

I can recommend the browser extension unhook. Going to youtube and seeing no recommendations forces you to use it as a tool. Searching for specific things and not letting yourself be led by recommendations changed the way I use it. Additionally to that I also have separate browser profiles. On my work profile I block youtube entirely

One more confirmation that our mission with Murmel (https://murmel.social) is on the right track. I want to see a world where people spend less tiem on social media (doom scrolling on Twitter, in particular), and more tiem outseide, or with friends and family.

In 2016, after a few years with bitcoin as my main obsession, I did something similar. Blocked bitcointalk.com at my router and on my phone using an Adblock program. Took me a few months to lose the urge to look at the drama/bs happening on that site and forget about "crypto." So glad I did.

I don't know where you are located, but I know for sure where you are not located: Ukraine. Modern world problem can always be solved with Ancient problems: Live threatening issues, people depending on you, etc. You should fine a meaning for your life. Move away from the inertia.

I know these compulsive behaviors arent good but these are first world problems compared to like a substance addiction where stopping without help could kill you and getting hekp could bankrupt you. We need a different word for this than addiction because it really diminishes it.

For others that have problems with this, there is an Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous group that has helped me quiet a bit. See here: https://internetaddictsanonymous.org/

This is why I'm building SocialsDetox. Tarun - if you register your interest (see about) I'll set you up with an account when it's ready for testing. With your help hopefully arriving at a method(s) to wean off Social Media, as opposed to cold turkey.

I'm still not convinced that the symptoms described in the article can be considered a disorder, any more than 'not exercising' can be a disorder. He's choosing to do certain things and not do other things. The consequences are bad. But is that a mental illness problem, or just that the consequences aren't bad enough, the behavior not repugnant enough, and thus he doesn't care enough? With a gun to his head, would he do his errands? Under threat of immediate termination from work? I'm guessing yes. So at what point is that a mental disorder and not just him deciding to not do things he doesn't want to do?

Philosophically, how can we say that a person's poor choices of behavior are mental disorders when they don't even lead to life threatening outcomes? Is smoking a mental disorder? He wishes he could quit, but keeps buying packs. Is being fat a mental disorder? He wishes he was thin, but doesn't exercise and keeps eating pizza. Is simply not grinding leetcode a mental disorder? He wants a higher salary, yet doesn't even practice leetcode or interview questions.

He wants to stop procrastinating his work, but he watches YouTube instead until all the work simply must be done in a long all-nighter. Is this a mental disorder? Apparently to a lot of people, yes, this is ADHD! You need lifelong medication now; your brain doesn't work right! No, this doesn't sound quite right to me.

Addiction is real, and he likely really is addicted to the internet. That's a real problem he should fix. And it may be that ADHD medication helps him fix it; I've taken Adderall for a period of time and it certainly fixed any procrastination tendencies I had as well (I don't have ADHD). But if we're going to make the case that medication helps and thus it should be taken, why do we need to pretend it's about a mental disorder? It helps me focus and perform better at work, so it should be available to me, no? Or does its help have to meet an arbitrary level of helpfulness to be permitted?

Basically, I'm not convinced ADHD is anything more than a label delineating one end of a spectrum of self determination. The cutoff seems arbitrary, and there is a lot of reverse engineering to arrive at the end result of medication: He would be helped by Adderall, thus he must have ADHD, thus his procrastination is actually a mental disorder and not just being lazy. We can go down that road as a society, but I prefer the road where we just collectively admit, "Yeah I'm lazy so I take a pill and it helps," without the veneer of noble medicine curing Real Disorders.

I'm confused by this..

"over 6 hours watching youtube videos, an hour of reading through comments[1] on hacker news, 3 hours of sleep and poof, the day is gone."

The day is only 10 hours long? Also author is only getting 3 hours of sleep per day!?!?

They are speaking figuratively about the day being gone.

"besides blanket ban on all things video..."

Yes, start with that. Disable animation and auto-play in any browsers you use. And only use browsers to consume content. This worked for me, and now I can't stand video or animations.

You mention self-help books and videos, but have you tried talking to a therapist? The video watching could be an avoidance behavior and they could help you figure out the reasons and how to cope if that's the case.

OP, when you were growing up, was TV your main entertainment? Fewer social interactions but many more hours on TV?

It might be a learnt behavior that you have to unlearn. Perhaps look how to unlearn something, if such a thing exists.

There are many things that I think that I should blanket ban, but I refuse to do so because blanket banning something makes me feel like that that something won. It makes me feel completely out of control.

This is a global phenomenon ... Almost any teenager or persons in their early twenties have a similar life. Maybe engage in an organisation where you simply cannot live like that (the army, etc) for a while ?

Hey folks. If this resonates with you at all, you really need to talk to your doctor about depression. I'm seeing a lot of textbook symptoms being mentioned in here.

- Delete your history on your desktop and mobile browsers.

- Delete shortcuts to websites that you frequent from the browser start page.

- Replace your frequently visited websites with websites you want to visit.

Rinse and repeat.

I still get stuff done, but also lose so much time to mindless online consumption.

I read about resetting dopamine receptors, but it's quite hard. A bit like losing weight.

As an actual addict I was thinking this would be about actual addiction. It’s not.

For future reference, dicking around on the internet is not an addiction.

OP shoot me an email if you want a sounding board from someone who is just a step or two ahead on the same path. Email is in profile.

> my memory is very, very fallible

You need sufficient sleep to make short-term memories last. Author already said he’s not getting enough sleep.

Get this man some adderall! It (or other ADHD meds, like Vyvanse) is a life changer for those of us afflicted with such things.

User Retention is a trillion+ dollar industry.

At what point can we stop placing the blame on ourselves and towards those who make these products?

> Getting over it: Besides blanket ban on all things video and social media, I don't think I have a better solution.

beeminder.com

I see the trend growing worse. Not just teenagers, most kids nowadays are addicted to the digital junk.

Work is boring a lot of times and so natural for people to avoid work and spend attention elsewhere.

What's the solution?

A couple of sessions with a psychologist or counselor can easily fix this if you want it fixed.

I have nothing constructive to add here - I just found this amusing. What can I say.. I'm a simple man. https://pasteboard.co/ZK0rNK25LqxH.jpg

You may be interested in the ACT therapy

I’ve been struggling with the same problem and found a solution that works for me. I was procrastinating up to 8 hours per day, on average.

The core idea is to make a contract with oneself to not exceed a daily budget of procrastination and implement it. Say, 4 hours per day, on average. Everything else follows from it.

There are few critical components to make this work:

1. You need to admit you have a problem that needs fixing. If you procrastinate so much, quite possibly you are depressed. Like, for realz. That's OK.

2. Self-understanding that this is a matter of survival. Either you will make this work, or your life will be truly miserable, up to and including destroying your career, relationships and health.

3. Comprehensive time tracking. If you were watching a YouTube video while eating and spent extra 5 minutes to finish off the video after you were done with your meal, you need to track these 5 minutes. If you pick up your phone in bed just to quickly scroll through pages for 3 minutes, you need to track it. I use Excel for that - very fast & easy if you know the right keyboard shortcuts.

4. You need to do the tracking _yourself_. This is to (a) increase awareness you procrastinated and (b) introduce friction to doing it.

5. Social accountability. I have a weekly session with a coach where I report if I stayed within the quota, or not. But anybody you don't want to disappoint will do.

6. You are good as long as you stay within the budget. If you spend the time you reclaimed by laying on the couch and looking at the ceiling for 3 hours - that's a huge win. More on that below.

7. As always, you cannot neglect your fundamentals: sleep, exercise, proper diet, socializing. But now you will have time to deal with it.

Once you implement this process, few observation immediately come to mind:

1. You have so much more time and mental energy. Wow.

2. If you fail to track these short 3-5 minute burst of procrastination, they quickly add up to half an hour, an hour, two hours. Hence, you really cannot slip on that. If you slip, you also won’t be able to trust yourself, which is critical.

3. You become bored with that extra time, meaning you finally have time to think and talk to yourself. I cannot overstate how important that is. You can use this time to direct your thoughts / visualize better outcomes and hence motivate yourself to do the right thing (aka Cognitive Behavioral Therapy).

4. Once you keep doing it successfully for some time, you can now trust yourself that you are in control. This is huge, because your emotions now will be on your side.

5. You become less afraid of doing productive things, because you actually have time to do them, instead of thinking "what's the point, I have 1 hour in the day left after wasting all of it, I am tired, and I will give into my procrastination cravings anyway".

6. You will sleep way more because now you cannot procrastinate in bed. This will repay your sleep debt and restore your energy levels, making everything else much easier to tackle.

Overall, this strategy works for me very well because (a) I admitted to myself I have a problem that is very serious. This means I need to seek help and develop a process to solve it. And (b) I don’t mind doing comprehensive time tracking of my procrastination time, which is a critical part of the entire process.