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Comment by robonerd | Hacker News Reader

Does anybody else feel the hair on their neck rise when they hear accusations of narcissism? A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me by accusing all of my other friends of being narcissists, telling me that I should stop being around them. I now believe that accusing other people of narcissism is one method employed by narcissists, so these sort of accusations now make me very nervous about the person making them.

Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.

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Yeah this is my first thought when I read this. Calling others narcissists is more often a red flag for the accuser than the accusee in my opinion.

Narcissism is a spectrum just like every other personality trait, not some binary thing that some people are and some people aren't. And you don't really want to be on either extreme of that spectrum in my opinion.

I think the term is often used to mean "someone who isn't giving me what I want so I'm going to pathologize my not liking them".

That being said, there are certainly people who are subjectively obnoxiously narcissistic and I'm sure in a clinical setting you find true outliers who are deeply pathological.

Yes. Abusers often claim to be the victim and turn people against their target. And abusers will often provoke victims, complicating the situation.

> A few times in my life I've known people who tried to control me

And you are aware of a red flag.

Another good tool -- narcissists (other manipulators, abusers) will use fear, obligation, and guilt to control people -- FOG. If you find yourself feeling those emotions around / because of certain people, investigate carefully as to why.

> Also it reminds me of the 'asshole' theory; that if you meet an asshole one day, you've simply met an asshole. But if you meet many assholes every day, it's probably you who's the asshole. Somebody who perceives many narcissists all over the place is somebody I'm wary of.

Witch hunts should be scrutinized as much as wolf-criers. Groups of people regularly dispense with rigor and independent thought when it comes to enforcing social consensus especially when such consensus is superstitiously predicated upon the need of a scapegoat.

For sure.

It's the fear and obligation type attack.

You have an obligation to date me is the claim. I'm the "nice guy / good guy". (No, I am not obligated to date you.)

If you don't I will label and attack you as a narcissist, as "toxic" etc (that drives fear). (As soon as you start hearing this type of stuff - get out, because relationships depend on trust and someone looking to destroy you or making those kind of claims / threats is not someone to trust and are using fear and threats)

The folks who see this "all around" often have some of their own personal issues. I think one can by sympathetic to them, but be very cautious about a close personal relationship with them - drama and conflict.

My own experience is they are often searching for something (connection etc) because they struggle to find it. So they can get into heavy travel, sometimes drugs or more intense experience (desert raves etc) which provide a (temporary) feeling of connection without the hard work of ongoing community and relationship. I still see friends from high school and college. Is it easy? No. Is it worth it? Absolutely. Same with relationship (and marriage and kids). Easy? No. Worth it? For sure. And in that friend group, you can give each other a bit of a hard time for our personal failings - but it's never an attack like this (narcissism, your toxic etc). It's more like, there goes Joe, dine and dash again - with affection and an invite to the next hangout (and joe might need to get back for kids etc).

I feel the same. Because whenever I hear these accusations, part of me goes, "oh no, am I a narcissist? Am I one of those horrible people?" But then I take a step back and go, "wait. It feels like someone is trying to control the people around them with guilt."

So then I reject the concept entirely and instead ask another set of questions:

- Do you hurt people?

- Do you insist on dominating people's conversations?

- Do you take things from people?

- Do you steal credit?

- Are you mean?

- Do you display physical violence?

- Do you throw tantrums?

- Do you lie about other people?

No? Well, fine, that doesn't mean you're perfect -- we all sin -- but... is it really likely that you have some terrible behavioral pathology? I don't think so.

The problem is, this gets mixed with a bunch of other things that, as far as I can tell, are universal:

- Do you like to feel appreciated?

- Do you enjoy positive attention? (Well, only so much, actually.)

- Do you try to keep up appearances? Dress better when you're going out? Worry about embarrassment when public speaking?

Isn't all that just normal? I'd think it is! In fact, what happens if you reverse these? A person who gives no shit what other people think -- what motivates them? I just don't understand it. It's like considering a reptile. We're social creatures.

At some level --

Do you attack other people?

If the answer is no, you're probably ok.

And if you're throwing the word "narcissist" at people... doesn't that make you an attacker?

Something about it all just makes my skin crawl.

I think your whole self-reflection, while laudable, could reach the same conclusion much quicker from the very start:

> part of me goes, "oh no, am I a narcissist? Am I one of those horrible people?"

If you ever worry enough that you might be a narcissist that you are tempted to seriously explore the possibly, you are most definitely not a narcissist. That's not to say you are guaranteed to be free of fault, but being self-critical and feeling concerned about your own behaviour is incompatible with narcissism.

I feel so grateful to read your reflection—and I hope you don't enjoy your own reflection too much or you may become Narcissus himself :-)

Jokes aside, I feel very similarly to you and appreciated how you broke it down into more simple actions/sayings.

yes, this

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