Hacker News Reader

I have an ID4 and I've had a great experience with it. The car only thinks you're leaving if your butt is off the seat and the driver side door is open. With the climate controls, there is a 'smart climate' and a 'classic climate' view. The 'smart climate' options aren't as bad as you suggest either.

My only real gripes with it are the laggy infotainment system and meh mobile app.

> BMW's i4 and iX just came out, both of which appear to blow Tesla out of the fucking water.

In what sense does it blow Tesla out of the water? A Model 3 gets 334 miles of range and it MSRPs at $49K--the most you can get out of BMW seems to be 315 and it costs almost double.

> The Ford Lightning has sold out several years worth of production.

That only speaks to Ford's marketing.

> GM has the Ultium platform in production (Hummer) which will soon serve as the base for a number of models.

Personally I'm not keen on a 9klb car.

> Just get in, use the "gear" selector, and drive.

Tesla has had that for a while now, and it works pretty well. I'm not sure why you'd "come out of the driver's seat" while backing up, but my Tesla doesn't shut off.

> Then they had to go and infantilize the climate control system. I wish I were joking when you tap a "I'm cold" button or "I can't see out the windshield" to get things to happen. Apparently VW's IQ team thinks people are absolute imbeciles.

Tesla probably beats them for the stupidest climate control system. If anyone in the car wants to adjust their seat heaters, it automatically turns on the heat or A/C, so you have to open up the climate control menu (which automatically turns on heat or A/C), adjust seat heaters, turn off the heat/AC, and then close the menu.

Similarly, the defrost buttons always turn the fan up to the max (and you can't turn it back down) and they also turn up either heat or AC to the max as well. So you're getting blasted in the face with either super hot air or super cold air, so in practice you toggle it on until you're uncomfortable, then turn it off, then wait for the windshield to fog up again, and repeat.

As if that weren't enough, there's no way to tell it to warm up or cool down, you have to set the exact temperature. So I guess you're supposed to carry a thermostat with you so you know what temperature it is currently, and then you can turn on your climate control and tell Tesla to make it a little warmer or colder.

To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

That said, I see some things I see as important differences at those MSRP points:

* Model 3 has their basic autopilot included in that price. BMW for adaptive cruise features and parking adds another $2400. Also, BMW assistant seems much, much more limited than the Tesla system based on the description.

* Model 3 includes their 'premium' audio, that's another $875 from BMW.

* Model 3 includes heated seats/steering wheel, lumbar support, etc. That's a $950 add-on from BMW.

* BMW offers ventilated front seats, which is not offered by Tesla on the Model 3; that said, it's a $350 option. plus requires the $1.5k leather option as well.

* Model 3 is AWD. BMW is RWD only. AWD only comes on the m50 model, which also has lower range (and more expensive by 10k)

* Model 3 is much faster (5.4 for BMW, 4.2 for Tesla)

* BMW allows 4 different synthetic color choices for free. Model 3 non-black (white) is a $1000. BMW also offers leather colorways for $1500

* BMW offers dash trim options for free. Tesla one is tied to their seat color choice

* Fancy headlights are $1000 extra from BMW. Standard with a Tesla

* "Drive recorder" is $100 from BMW. Free w/ Tesla

Some of those are pretty substantial differences, and may be another $5k on top. That's also not counting any potential dealer markups that might be in place.

You can argue about BMW vs Tesla quality, but if you're purely talking feature-set, Tesla seems to be winning handily. That said, there are certain things that may be really important to a BMW buyer (colorways, customization) that just are not offered by Tesla and could be a deal-breaker.

> To your point on the Model 3, I think you forgot to unselect the 'including incentives' button on the Model 3. The actual MSRP for the 356 mi (not 334, 334 is with the 19" wheels) Model 3 is $56k.

You're correct, I did forget to unselect that option.

> In comparison, the i4 is 55k MSRP for the base one, certain not double the price (at least, at MSRP).

The i4 gets less range. The max range option is the iX, and that only gets 315.

Your options comparison was interesting, although I don't much like adaptive cruise control or lane assist on my model Y (phantom braking) and would pay more to have a standard cruise control option--it's pretty nice that BWM offers it for free!

The BMW iX is a crossover/SUV. A fairer comparison of that car is the Model X, which is much more closely priced to the iX. The Model Y, although cheaper, isn't really the same size car so the X is a closer comparison. And then you're neck-and-neck in pricing (assuming MSRP) for those two.

Agreed, but my requirement is max range, not comparable class. The only way to get 315 miles of range out of BMW is to spend $100k.

blow tesla out of the water how? also telsas have the same (similar?) keyless/buttonless system as the VW (though it just parks, doesn't shut off the car)

Every review of the i4 says that it has the fit and finish that you expect with a BMW. Obviously there are other criteria that matter, like range, etc, that Tesla is still in the lead. However the compromises you may need to make with the a Tesla are becoming less tolerable as you see more options in the market. Tesla's lead will not hold.

I would take those reviews with a big grain of salt; those reviewers are in tight with legacy auto manufacturers (I forget which, but one of the big auto magazines didn't even include Tesla in their rankings for top 2022 EVs).

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

I believe other auto manufacturers will eventually catch up, but not until they catch up on range and charging network.

> Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right?

Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

> I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

> Definitely true when the range was around 100 or 150 miles. Less true when the range is closer to 300.

300 rated miles is closer to 200 actual miles when you account for cold weather, head winds, and not charging to 100% at each station along the route (usually you only charge to ~60-80%). If you're only driving around town, that's fine, but road trips are going to suck below 300 (visiting family in another state during the holidays?) especially if your charging network sucks (even on Tesla's network there are some butt-clenching stretches).

> Are there any Tesla competitors that have so little range that they need to be charged every hour?

I'm pretty sure my Model Y needs to be charged every couple of hours of highway driving in the winter (maybe even less? I'm not sure) and its rated for ~320 miles. Based on that, I would guess that some of the 200-250 rated cars are coming in pretty close to charging every hour. Whether it's an hour or an hour and twenty minutes, I'm not interested.

Sure, I get that winter affects things — I wasn't referring to the worst-case scenario for charging. People who road-trip in cold weather (and don't have a second vehicle) will continue to care about max range for longer than other folks. In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

There are other valid concerns of course; where I live, issues with the electric grid make it dicey to have only EVs.

> In warmer parts of the country/world, I think range anxiety/concern will tail off pretty soon.

Even the warmer parts of the country get pretty cold (it was 20 degrees all over the southwest when I roadtripped in January). If you live near a coast maybe it's mild enough that you won't notice it. I'll hazard a (probably ignorant) guess, but I would think most of the reliably-warm world is either too poor for an EV or they don't have reliable electricity or both.

Also, surely "range" is one of the dominating factors in purchasing an EV, right? I'll tolerate some fit and finish issues so long as I don't have to stop to charge every hour (assuming I can even find a charger).

No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle. Modern EVs don't need to be charged every hour, unless you're planning on getting the Hummer EV.

Tesla does have a superior charging network. However, several other cars have better range than Tesla.

> No, for the same reason that "size of gas tank" isn't a dominant factor in purchasing an ICE vehicle.

Gas tank size doesn’t matter because it takes 2 minutes to fill a tank and there are gas stations every few miles. The EV situation is at least an order of magnitude worse in both cases. It’s a completely different game.

Range is important, but the differences diminish once we get above 250 or 300 miles. Especially for what may be typical, where you charge nightly at home. Those who regularly drive for a living may have a different perspective.

Looking past reviews and whatnot, I can't ignore some of the bigger safety concerns, like randomly catching on fire. An extra 20 or 30 miles of range is irrelevant in that case. (to be fair, maybe that's a general EV issue, and Tesla is known only because of the volume of that market they own)

I don’t drive for a living—on the contrary, I work from home. But I do make a lot of trips out of state—we have a lot of family in a 5-7 hour radius, not to mention regional recreational traveling. Realistically a 5 hour drive is 6 hours with 2 charging stops and my car is rated for 330 miles. A 7 hour drive is probably at least 8.5 hours. It’s considerably worse in the winter. I would never want to drop down to 250 miles of range.

Many of those same sites rank Tesla highly as well. Knowing how Tesla uses NDAs as a tool, I wouldn't be surprised if there's gaming there as well.

I'm pretty sure all of those cars are far less efficient in the miles per kwh sense than their tesla counterparts. Which is a shame.

It does look like the Model 3 has a decent lead in efficiency:

https://ev-database.uk/compare/efficiency-electric-vehicle-m...

Probably not BMW. They actually beat Tesla to market with high-efficiency, switched-reluctance designs (someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, I think that's what the tech is called), and have an uncanny ability to design low coefficients of drag.