Feeling like a victim is a perfectly disastrous way to go through life
newsletter.butwhatfor.com
newsletter.butwhatfor.com
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
(I'm mostly being facetious.)
Marcus did achieve the title of emperor, but dismissing him because of his accomplishments, especially when stoicism was a key and integral part of his life along the way, is odd.
(1) a person who mostly experiences challenges at or just above their ability to solve them
(2) a person who mostly experiences challenges way above their ability to solve them (even plausibly so)
Stoicism, political conservatism, rugged individualists, etc. are just those in camp-1 unaware there's a camp-2.
(Likewise, social radicals are in camp-2, saying of 1, they're privileged as if that isnt desirable!. So both sides are superstitious about the other).
He found himself not only largely unable to help better mankind, but could not even better his own son. Aurelius is generally regarded as one of the greatest leaders of humanity to have lived; his son (Commodus) - one of the worst. Father deified, son assassinated (to great celebration) and struck from all official record.
And it wasn't simply failure to achieve, but also failure of circumstance. He was surrounded by death which climaxed with a many years long plague that by some estimates killed more than 30% of the entire empire's population, including some of Aurelius' own immediate family.
[1] - http://files.libertyfund.org/files/2133/Aurelius_1464_LFeBk.... # That book has a lengthy, and necessary, intro (well multiple actually) explaining stoicism and providing various historical context. Aurelius' writings themselves only begin on page 25 of the book, 59 of the PDF.
Hence "champagne socialists" and "temporarily embarrassed millionaires."
Can we put some numbers on this? A few offhand examples of "champagne socialists" and "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" doesn't really support your claim.
I'm not giving examples just citing these popular phrases which exist to note the phenomenon.
I think the main difference is disagreement on what constitutes a solvable problem and the value of trying.
If you just learned programming and apply to faang you are in camp 2, etc.
It is not a passive thing.
No
Except it isn’t that. Its the internal monologue of a roman emperor dealing with the extreme stresses of his life and his role in the world.
It's a good remark that it's effectively the emperor's diary instead, though. I didn't know that.
Unless you also believe that the entire universe including yourself is a single sentient being and every event is perfectly predetermined, you're gonna find some contradictions here.
It's not really a unified coherent practical philosophy when separated from that cosmology. Individual parts of it can still be individually valuable of course, but other parts truly are just an emperor telling people to deal with it.
A more western-digestible analogy would be believing in the resurrection of christ without believing in his divinity. You could still get useful advice from the sermons but it stops being a coherent foundation of belief for your role in the world.
- logos - Dao - Brahman - Wralda
> It's not really a unified coherent practical philosophy when separated from that cosmology.
I absolutely agree with this, and I'd say anyone who wants to take Stoicism seriously should adapt a similar metaphysical perspective. I'd also say that anyone who already understands one of the above religions already has the ability to readily understand the others, at least compared to the standard Westerner.
The advice says nothing about how the downtrodden should act about their situation of downtroddeness.
Focusing and making assumptions on the unfairness of the statement is a bit of victim mentality. In fact, your statement reminds me of an article I read somewhere. I think it was titled "Feeling like a victim is a perfectly disastrous way to go through life"
My point exactly.
Externalizers tend to place the locus of control outside of themselves which symbolically castrates them to fantasize about the objet petit a[2]. When it negatively impacts your life, you become the friend who likes to complain about everything but does nothing. Or worse, you're a person against the world who owes no one and impotently rages against everything.
Internalizers do the opposite. They will place immense burdens upon themselves to unrealistically adapt and change when most people would confront the challenge directly. An example is the Missing Stair[3] metaphor. An internalizer works around everything, always pushing the problem inward and never forcing the world to change. Internalizers can be harder to identify as they silently suffer in an absence of self-kindness.
What the article glosses over is knowing yourself[4] well enough to understand which tendencies you have. Maybe you tend to be an externalizer with your career and an internalizer with social relations or vice-versa or some other mixture entirely. It can be hard to be honest with yourself and ask, "Is this truly working for me?" But, those questions are hard precisely because they are the first step towards personal growth.
1. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-theater-the-brai...
2. http://cahiers.kingston.ac.uk/concepts/castration.html
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair
4. γνῶθι σεαυτόν - which everyone should practice before blindly taking advice
isn't feeling like a victim the very definition of externalizing?
wouldn't internalizing mean to blame yourself instead?
doesn't accept personal responsibility translate (crudely) to: don't blame others, it's your own fault. (i realize that this is not the intent, i actually understand the article to mean that i should take responsibility for changing the situation, not just for getting into the situation in the first place. so this is just exaggerated to draw out the point)
so yes, i agree this is for externalizers, but that's because internalizers would never see themselves as victims. (well maybe one can see oneself as a victim of ones past self)
sorry, if i sound confused, i am trying to work this out as i write.
so basically, the advice to not feel as a victim is a no-op for internalizers because they don't do that already. but what follows still applies: take responsibility to get yourself out of that situation
likewise internalizers are also not immune to self-pity.
externalizers feel they can't do anything because everyone else prevents them. internalizers feel they can't do anything because they themselves are lacking the necessary capacity.
but the article says that neither is true. you can take responsibility and make your situation better. i think that applies equally to both.
an externalizer can say: yes, that happened to me, but i can fix it, even though it's not my fault. and the internalizer can say, yes, i got myself into that situation, but i can also get myself out of it.
so i don't really see much of a difference there, and why the advice would be terrible for internalizers.
What you say makes sense from a solutions point of view that assumes people presently have the mental capacity to improve their lives and circumstances. Sometimes it works, and it's always attractive to think of and offer solutions, but it can be a two-edged sword. If you say that to someone who's burned out (for lack of a better expression; doesn't have to be burnout), out of capacity and miserable and disproportionately blaming themselves for that, you might just increase their self-blame rather than positively encouraging them towards solutions even if your intention is the latter.
Friendship or other "normal" relationships and interaction aren't therapy, of course, but the negative correlation might be an insightful observation nevertheless.
A therapist shouldn’t, for instance, tell someone it’s ok to feel uncontrollable rage because the mail was 5 minutes later than normal yesterday.
Noting it is happening is of course important. But challenging the client is also important.
Is that helping them? Do they know why they felt that way? Are there tools we can use to discover why, if not? Are there actions that can be taken to put them in a place where they can feel something that IS helping them, for instance.
Friends who always encourage or validate are toxic, just like those that never do. It’s contextual.
i meant validation in contrast to just dismissing their their feelings or pushing them to your solutions.
also, validation is not encouragement. if you come up with a bad solution to a problem, i'd have you walk me through it and explain to me why that is the best option. and if i am not convinced, but neither you or me can come up with a better solution, then i'd be very hesitant and validate cautiously.
and even in the best case an enthusiastic validation is less useful, if at all. if i get that from a friend it feels like they have not even thought about the problem and they are just trying to be nice without taking me seriously.
No, it wasn’t.
This blew my mind. Thank you for that.
The Missing Stair metaphor was started from talking about a rapist in a bdsm community. Sexual immorality should be removed from the communion.
Generalizing the Missing Stair metaphor to any given Challenge, opens the user up to studying evil and spreading the fire by challenging it.
Turning away from evil "missing stairs" works better as a generalized concept as it works better in most cases and gives the missing stair person, a chance of redemption by turning to the good by following the internalizer.
Owning your problem will always result in a better outcome than focusing on victimhood and blame. Blame places control and solutions outside yourself.
I wish I could upvote you 10 times.
The "don't feel like a victim" advice is a very dangerous when a person really is a victim and needs to get away from an aggressor.
Besides, advice that works very well for 50% (or even 90%) of the population and harm the others is terrible advice. We need nuance.
at least that is how i read the article.
Did you even read the article?
By not feeling like a victim, you own your problem, and this enables you to solve it. In this case, by getting away from the aggressor.
At that point, would "don't be a victim" be useful advice or an empty platitude?
This isn't a given though. I know plenty of people who overinternalize to the point of burnout and don't become cynical externalizes[1].
In my experience "dont be a victim" means "please stop complaining" more than anything else. A friend who truly does wish to help might start with getting curious about why the externalizing victim feels like they cannot affect change, but this is tricky. Often people don't want to be offered unsolicited advice or be made to feel like they have to prove that they have exhausted their options before being offered sympathy. It's a fine line.
1. Before someone else chimes in with it being a useless model because it does not make predictions - that's not the point. It's a mode of interpretation/critical lens, not a predictive model.
That's a clear and concise summary of what I meant. What, in your experience would the solution to such a Catch-22 be? I'm sure most reasonable individuals would want meaningful and effective agency but denying the reality and pretending they have sufficient agency isn't helpful either.
What of it, if some old hunks of a sea-captain orders me to get a broom and sweep down the decks? What does that indignity amount to, weighed, I mean, in the scales of the New Testament? Do you think the archangel Gabriel thinks anything the less of me, because I promptly and respectfully obey that old hunks in that particular instance? Who ain’t a slave? Tell me that. Well, then, however the old sea-captains may order me about—however they may thump and punch me about, I have the satisfaction of knowing that it is all right; that everybody else is one way or other served in much the same way—either in a physical or metaphysical point of view, that is; and so the universal thump is passed round, and all hands should rub each other’s shoulder-blades, and be content.
Moby Dick, “Loomings” (1851)
Unfortunately if one is a victim too often, too many bad things happen, it's natural to become a Victim and live your life that way.
This has been on my mind a lot because of some circumstances I found myself in that ended up being disastrous. When I complained to a good friend, he would often characterize me as just being too negative or something. For years what I would do is the stoic thing, sort of tell myself I was just making too big of a deal about it, and so forth and so on.
At some point though I realized my problem was the opposite, that I wasn't making a big enough deal about it, I wasn't taking enough action, and by the time I understood what was going on, it was basically too late.
In my case, I think the problem was that I didn't know how bad things really were, because I didn't have any frame of reference for anything else. I didn't know how it should be, so I didn't understand how far things were off. And my friends projected, assumed that where I was, things were like where they were at, that if I complained about Serious Problem X, I really meant Less Serious Problem Y, even though I actually meant Serious Problem X.
When this goes on long enough, and no one really knows what's going on -- you can't help yourself because you don't recognize what's happening, and no one around you is helping for whatever reason -- it can look like you're wallowing in victimhood when it's really just that no one is really identifying the actual source of the problem. There might not be any real victims involved, or maybe everyone is a victim. It doesn't matter.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, this is the essence of classical Western tragedy: no one is really a victim, they're just screwed in ways no one forsees.
it's almost impossible to get out of that. you really need that friend that can validate your feelings and can help you confirm that you are taking the right steps to get out of that problem, especially when those steps are counter your intuition, or counter to what you think everyone else around expects from you.
Part of this behavior denies victimhood as a form of social control. It's a malignant form of denying victim hood and it's most dangerous form
I think it is often the case that victims are seeking something, so it seems natural for the cohort to gatekeep. If someone were to ask me for special consideration or treatment on account of being a victim, I want to know they are genuine.
Both Games People Play and What Do You Say After You Say Hello, where the idea of life scripts is explained.
Quietly feeling like a victim may indeed not be useful, but complaining effectively can get you a lot.
Also, I unsurprisingly see no evidence in this article that the ideas described will actually lead to success.
Instead of complaining, state the problem, why you believe it is a problem, and what you're going to do about it unless people stop you with a better idea. This way, everyone knows what to expect your actions to be. They also have an opportunity to oppose your plan if they feel strongly enough to overcome inaction. And you're not complaining, because you've made it clear that you intend to solve it.
Complaining can be an answer in a local community when the community is severely dysfunctional. For example, in the workplace, an overbearing manager who requires all decisions to go through them and doesn't allow any autonomy. In that case, complaining, leaving, or try to manipulate the manager are the dysfunctional alternatives.
Source: me, after 15 years of difficult work with an exceptional therapist.
There's liberation in realizing that this is all a game. The shared reality we take as fact, rooted in science, is not actually how any of this works. We're all dreaming this in the perpetual now. Time is an illusion. The past is a wake behind a boat we're riding in, not the cause of our present reality. The future is a sea of endless possibility we manifest through conscious intuition, not something we build manually.
Once I learned to meditate and tune in to the vibration of the reality I want to exist in, and tune out the rest, things got better. Also stepping back from 3D to 4D/5D helped me see the suffering in others and their projection of that onto me. As above, so below.
As my reality shifts, the universe goes to great lengths to adjust the context, trading one presence for another, and that chaos magic process can be exhilarating but also frightening. Since science may never be able to explain source consciousness or how its force constructs reality, we're all divine by definition. I think that's what they mean by stepping into our power and changing the world around us. With great power comes great responsibility. Which again, is why I avoid using it now whenever possible.
Certain things seem to nurture spiritual growth: negative reinforcement, loss, surrender, service, faith, hope and love. And many more. Anyone can rise above at any time, but we're usually too busy saying "nah, maybe some other time."
https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/the-4-types-of-intuit...
There's a spot on the big fat end of the distribution for pareto nihilists.
No matter where you lop the end of the Pareto distribution off the remaining curve still fits the same distribution. I though that was a defining characteristic of the principle.
> ... reliable distributions ... do not control individuals.
The people who've made it always talk to the people who haven't as if they can, by force of will, change their circumstances. That may be true if an individual has an untapped talent but in general luck will determine your outcome way more often than force of will. If it were possible for everyone to be rich there would be examples of that in society all across the world and all throughout history.
I applaud your optimism though.
- Charlie the shark, addressing a school of fish
(also, what could have made my phone decide that I live in Las Vegas?)
Feeling like a victim is only bad if you're not actually a victim of anything. If you ARE a victim, then it's delusional not to feel as such.
I know how everybody in the US loves hustle culture, but this story isn't applicable to everybody. The story is written and emphasized in such a way that this could happen nowadays to you and me but it can't.
When this guy lost his home, he had a backup at the university club, presumably granted to him by powerful friends at the university; no worry about sleeping on the street, no police knocking on his car-window in the middle of the night, no worry about having to find a place to shower or wash your clothes. No getting fired for being unhygienic or sleeping on the street.
> In those days, there was no health insurance, you just paid everything out of pocket
Yes, but in the fricking 1950s. Before the absurdly inflated costs of current american healthcare. In those days you would pay an amount more closely related to the actual amount of doctor-hours and medical supplies you use.
I really don't get people in these comments, it's as if they've never met poor people before; it's perfectly possible to make all the right choices that life offers you, but still end up in a bad state.
I'm sure there are some situations where aspiring entrepreneurs need a kick in their butt, but in other situations putting the blame on the person's 'mentality' only distracts from dealing with the real issues.
Spot on. Additionally, modern neurology has proven that people experiencing stress and anxiety for years risk loss of cognitive abilities and long-term emotional harm. This is not something that you can just shake away with some "positive affirmations" and walk in a park.
This kind of narrative blames people who are facing learned helplessness.
Even if you are not a victim - but you are unhappy for any other reason it's crucial to recognize and address it. Recognizing it is step one in order to overcome it.
Unfortunately some cultures tolerated decades of hustle culture / rugged individualism to the point of becoming unable to admit difficulties.
This is psychology 101 and it's really telling that HN downvotes you and me instead.
It can be difficult to get back to a healthy mental state, and some people need help.
That said, feeling a helpless victim is a terrible way to go through life, and usually far worse than the original harm.
Yet the article and most comments blame people for going through the victim stage.
This is like "Did your mother die last week? Grief is disastrous!"
I think the point is to remind that the state of victimhood, and paralysis that comes with it is not a healthy end state.
Even if you are a victim, by adopting a "victimhood mindset" you inflict further harm upon yourself.
Probably the best book written on this is Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" in which he writes about his experience as a prisoner in a Nazi concentration camp.
Everyone has a struggle but I doubt Munger was actually ever truly "broke". These bootstrapping stories always have some hidden safety net that is de-emphasized.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: you've unfortunately been posting tons of unsubstantive and flamebait comments. If you keep doing that, we're going to have to ban you, because it's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules? The idea is a forum with curious, thoughtful conversation on topics that people (including you!) find intellectually interesting.
even the most wealthy, most successful and privileged have something in their lives that victimises them.
It is exceedingly tempting to succumb to it.
I still say, the best way to avoid that feeling is not to be slapped in the face. Just my personal preference.
Maybe one day we can simply not die, but until then, we are all victims of our own mortality, and plenty of people of all sorts feel plenty bad about that.
Someone who is a victim of repeated assaults during childhood is very likely to tend toward hyper-vigilance their entire lifetime (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_...) but that's not me.
> Shortly after the divorce, Charlie learned that his son, Teddy, had leukemia.
What exactly is your solution?
I'm a victim of the Android/iOS duopoly. How do you suggest I change that? Throw away my smartphone? Build my own?