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Comment by pdimitar | Hacker News Reader

Well, FINALLY a scientific explanation about "sleep from 22:00 to 6:00, you'll be healthier" thing that is being constantly peddled!

It really pisses me off when people just keep repeating stuff and never support them with evidence.

This here however -- your tidbit -- is something I can work with and might prompt me to change my habits.

Any idea if taking melatonin pills while still going to bed at 4:00 is having the same, or at least some effect? Or does it not work at all then?

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The problem is that sleep does so much, that even trying to create a list seems impossible, but some try: https://www.healthline.com/health/why-do-we-sleep

Sleep has been researched heavily (but far from conclusively), and there is an insane amount of diseases that people who don't get enough sleep are a risk group for. And some of those correlations are quite pronounced, like being ~30% more likely to get dementia if you don't get enough sleep in your 50s and 60s.

In some cases nobody can conclusively say whether there's causation, because we don't fully understand diseases like alzheimer or some of the processes happening during sleep, but in the meantime it seems prudent to sleep a healthy amount.

If you have the causation backwards in your phrasing, that implies that perhaps some people simply can't get good sleep even though they might try. You could say: you're 30% more likely to have sleep problems in your 50s and 60s if you're in the very early stages of developing dementia. Perhaps the disease process makes the sleep problems unavoidable and trying sleep more won't help.

Possibly. Without controlled trials we may never know certainly enough to satisfy some.

But considering the lifestyle loss from dementia I'd rather risk losing some waking time instead.

The hour you go to bed doesn’t matter. You need a regular sleep schedule with enough sleep and that’s it. What people mean, without realizing it, when they say the hours before midnight count double is that your first hours of sleep are the most important. Your sleep consists of several cycles, +- 90 minutes long. There are several stages of sleep in each cycle, deep sleep is the most important one. You are probably most familiar with the last stage, REM sleep. You get the most deep sleep in the first cycles, so in the first hours of sleeping. But it doesn’t matter when those first hours are, the body has no concept of midnight.

That's what I want to believe but many people say that melatonin peaks in your body during these hours so you should be asleep then to maximize the positive effect. Conversely, they say if you don't sleep during these hours then you're hugely increasing your health risks.

So I'm trying to figure out if they're right or not because I'm 42 and I've been a night owl since 12 and yeah, nowadays my health is quite bad and I'm busting my arse trying to fix it.

What does the sleep schedule of a self described night owl mean

There's none -- that's the best description, because it's not happening by schedule at all. Last night, for the first time in at least two months, I fell asleep at 3:00 AM. Usually it's 5:00 - 6:00.

Sometimes I sleep 4-5h and then have a huge nap -- 2.5h to 3.5h -- in the early evening. Happens for a week or two. Then I go without naps for a month.

It's relatively cyclical but the periods aren't with fixed values at all. The daily hours are fairly inconsistent as well.

Well that’s the issue then. You’re not getting enough sleep. And it’s not consistent.

Yep, but since I got a few health conditions I can no longer tell which one is the cause.

Guess I'll keep going to doctors like I do lately.

But I did hear from a few trainers and doctors that melatonin can be taken without prescription and is not dangerous, hence my question above.

I'll ask my doctor next time about it.

I have issues sleeping sporadically. I am a naturally hyper person - and found that if I do not make my body and/or my mind very tired, I cannot sleep deeply.

So I must complete heavy workouts every 1-2 days to make my body want to sleep. Maybe start heavy exercise when you feel you're getting near that point.

For me - it is a weight workout (lifting or power lifting). I can do a 1-2 hour cardio workout (or sprints) to get a similar effect.

Because most people are asleep during these hours, melatonin peaks when you sleep. Which for most people is 22:00 - 7:00 or something.

Your circadian rhythm regulates melatonin release. Not the clock hanging on your wall.

From your other comment, seems like your problem is a very inconsistent sleep pattern and not enough sleep.

There is plenty of actual science regarding sleep before midnight.

I would recommend googling rather than speculating in comment threads about unprescribed 'heavy doses' of unregulated supplements.

Sure, I'm doing that as well, in the meantime I'm curious if somebody has an experience.

>It really pisses me off when people just keep repeating stuff...

That's like %99.99 of "scientific" culture. People repeating stuff they heard. Memes.

Society isn't rational. Never was. Never will be.

There are pockets of relative rationality in society, and pockets of altruism, and sometimes they even overlap in time and proximity. It's a big mess, this society thing, but you know, just focus on being your best self and a good influence on what's around you. Don't let the broad view of humanity bring you down. It's probably a bit skewed by some jerks using your biases against you to get your attention and show you ads or something, and there's truth to the "life is what you make of it" platitudes.

(Is this post now a self-referential platitude? ...is it self-aware? Maybe I can convince that one Googler it's come to life.)

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