Bizarre and amazing. Genocide denial, right there.
It's not you, you know? Not even your parents were alive to do it. I hope one day you learn to see it this way so when you claim to be an experienced Turk, it actually doesn't sound like bullshit.
Go visit Batak or any other site of Ottoman atrocities and then try again. Brutal ethnic cleansing was very much an Ottoman thing throughout Ottoman history, and especially so in the last couple of centuries of decline. Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Armenians, etc. were brutally supressed and massacred many times.
> well, I'm not sure about this but, If I were Ataturk, I would probably build a secular Ottoman state like Ottoman v2
Honestly, in the post-WWI landscape, who would have wanted that? Peoples wanted their own nation state, nobody was interested in living in a multi-ethnic empire where they have no voice.
> they were the ones fought like a real men
At Gallipoli, and fought like real... What's a stupid aggressive animal doing stupid mistakes and getting itself killed in droves? That one. The Ottoman war effort was a(n almost) total failure. The sheer incompetence of the Ottoman high command and generals is only matched by other bright minds like von Hotzendorf.
If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ? I suggest you to take a deeper look at Ottoman's history and Turks. The way it works is that Ottomans used islam to convert non-muslim people.
It doesn't change the fact that they still sent their troops (most of them not ethnic Turks, but Arabs, or children of the occupied people stolen and raised as faithful soldiers of the Empire) to drown entire cities and regions in blood as soon as they "raised their head" and demanded their independence.
For example:
The Constantinople massacre of 1821 was orchestrated by the authorities of the Ottoman Empire against the Greek community of Constantinople in retaliation for the outbreak of the Greek War of Independence (1821–1830). As soon as the first news of the Greek uprising reached the Ottoman capital, there occurred mass executions, pogrom-type attacks,[1] destruction of churches, and looting of the properties of the city's Greek population.[2][3] The events culminated with the hanging of the Ecumenical Patriarch, Gregory V and the beheading of the Grand Dragoman, Konstantinos Mourouzis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_during_the_Greek_War...
The Chios massacre (in Greek: Η σφαγή της Χίου, Greek pronunciation: [i sfaˈʝi tis ˈçi.u]) was the killing of tens of thousands of Greeks on the island of Chios by Ottoman troops during the Greek War of Independence in 1822.[2] Greeks from neighboring islands had arrived on Chios and encouraged the Chiotes (the native inhabitants of the island) to join their revolt. In response, Ottoman troops landed on the island and killed thousands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chios_massacre
The Ottomans gave incentives to their enslaved people to convert to Islam and become Ottomanised. Those were peaceful incentives. But if the people did not take the opportunity offerred to them, then their lives were worth nothing and they were only fodder for the Ottomans' blades. That is what one sees if one takes a "deeper look".
Your comment implied this wasn't true: "If we were that bad as you said in your comments, how would they preserve their language, religion and their identity ?"
So then I pointed out that, yes, the Ottomans were "that bad" and they did routinely massacre Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Armenians, etc.
What are we still disagreeing about? It's not clear to me.
Asking the same thing again and again doesn't help here. Unfortunately binary statements would not be sufficient to cover all parameters in this context. I hope this helps.
If there are other issues to discuss, these can be addressed separately. But a simple true/false judgement should be very, very easy to decide given the wealth of historical information available.
Kardas, let me be frank: we can play this game forever and you're not going to convince anyone you're right, you'll just convince everyone you're dishonest.
well, I'm not trying to convince anyone as I'm trying to make it clear that It is not making sense to be accused of something that we have never ever committed.
The Armenian genocide[a] was the systematic destruction of the Armenian people and identity in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Spearheaded by the ruling Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), it was implemented primarily through the mass murder of around one million Armenians during death marches to the Syrian Desert and the forced Islamization of Armenian women and children.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
Other than that, never ever.
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-i/armenian-genocide
https://www.britannica.com/event/Armenian-Genocide
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-armeni...
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-was-the-armenian-ge...
Btw, the consistent denial of genoicde has now borne fruit and Turkiye is again accused of participating in a modern genocide, that of the Yazidi people:
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jul/05/turkey-should-fa...
This is what happens when you deny history.
I disagree. I'm not sure you know how Wikipedia works. Unfortunately, it is not a reliable source.
I wonder for how long you are going to continue denying it. My guess is we'll be here for a few more months, or even years.
That should be really interesting to watch.
I disagree. The G word has never happened. There is no such thing called historical evidence. Please refer the following fact sheet [0].
I’m not denying it as it never happened. But, yeah, I will be standing by my nation till the last spill of my blood.
[0]: https://www.mfa.gov.tr/the-armenian-allegation-of-genocide-t...
Impartial parties like e.g. the United States recognise the historicity of the Armenian Genocide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_recognition_of_t...
And of course there is plenty of historical evidence for it. I point you again to the wikipedia page:
I'm not going to ban you because you don't have a history of doing this and you make good contributions in other areas. But for heaven's sake please don't do it again.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
(In case anyone's worried about bias, the reason for banning one account and not another has nothing to do with which side of a flamewar they were on. It's because of the history of the two accounts, not just in this thread but in other threads, and previous warnings.)
I want to make excuses now, but I won't. I'm an idiot. Sorry sorry sorry.
If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
When they're fighting someone like this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoros_Kolokotronis
They turn tail and run screaming for mommy.
"Real men"...
NB: I didn't mean that he turned aside from Tripolitsa, I meant I was leaving the subject aside.
It also doesn't change the ridiculousness of the expression "real men" used by the OP particularly in the context in which it was used.
Btw, "selimthegrim", hm? I guess we all have our national heroes... Too bad that they usually killed each other.
Kolokotronis comes in for a bit more criticism on page 85 when a snotty remark about the Greek people is attributed to him, and later someone tells D. Ypsilantis to kill him, but he is nowhere near the worst figure in the book by a long shot.
I think Kolokotronis is the one figure from the Revolution that gives everyone the warm fuzzies in Greece. I've been to Nafplio as a child and shown the cell he was in, and told that a big hole in the wall was were he was digging himself out (probably apocryphal). To me he's dear because one of my ancestors was one of his chieftains (Giorgos Karachalios, executed by the Ottomans in the siege of Mega Spilaion, skinned alive according to family lore) and because I read his autobiography also as a kid.
Like I say, we all have our heroes...
> NB: I didn't mean that he turned aside from Tripolitsa, I meant I was leaving the subject aside.
And thanks for that, because that one really hurts.
You can see the narcissist's prayer somewhere in there and it is sad that it has become (long ago) an easily noticeable character trait of average Mehmet. You can only move on as a society/nation if you looked back in your past and learned from your mistakes. Turks have been denied of this opportunity by a century of identity politics and now sadly it's too late.