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Comment by SomeCallMeTim | Hacker News Reader

There's programming, and then there's programming.

I'm sorry, but what you're talking about sounds like it doesn't qualify as "programming" as much as web design and code plumbing. Note that in large part I'm talking semantics, here, in that my definition (and I suspect Joel's as well) differs from the way you're using the word).

I understand that you're likely paid well to do it -- as are plumbers. And it's a respectable job. I'm not trying to knock what you're doing.

But by your own admission your own code less than ideal. And Joel is talking about what a good programmer would need to be able to do, and if you want to start someone off on the path to becoming a good programmer, it's not a bad suggestion.

If you just want someone who can copy and paste code off of Github and doesn't really understand it, well, then you don't want a "good programmer" -- and frankly anyone worth their paycheck in IT probably already knows how to do that.

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Everyone here seems to be a big fan of the "no true Scotsman."

If you write code you're a programmer. End of story.

"Programming, and then there's programming" and "code plumbing" are, in fact, semantics.

> If you write code you're a programmer. End of story.

If you do arithmetic, does that make you a mathematician? Some things are a matter of degree.

Your analogy doesn't work because "mathematician" is a research position. You should compare mathematicians to computer scientists, not programmers.

You could make the same analogy and prove any side of the debate depending on the job you choose:

If you do plumbing, does that make you a plumber?

If you do painting, does that make you a painter?

If you do physics, does that make you a physicist?

If you drive vehicles, does that make you a driver?

Really, the debate here is that some people consider the word programmer to mean "computer scientist" or "computer expert", while others consider it to mean "person who programs". It's a debate on the meaning of a word and this kind of debate cannot be settled, because the word has multiple meanings. Everyone's right in their own way.

> Everyone here seems to be a big fan of the "no true Scotsman."

This isn't an example of that, because nobody changed definitions partway through.

On the other hand, a lot of people here love claiming that an argument is "no true Scotsman." ;)

  If you write code you're a programmer. End of story.

The 'no true Scotsman' fallacy does not apply when you are actually debating whether someone living in a border region with mixed parents can be considered 'a true Scotsman'.

We don't call everyone that uses Excel a programmer, even though the simplest expression of the form sum(A11:A22) is, for every reasonable definition, 'code'. That would dilute the term far beyond what people generally mean when they talk about 'programmers'.

You cannot call yourself a writer, just because you passed English with a C for your essays and now write blog posts for a limited audience. You are not a programmer just because you can whip out webapps that strictly do the limited things you require of them.

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