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Comment by elevaet | Hacker News Reader

One possible benefit of alcohol is that it often brings people together as a social lubricant. As has become clear in studies lately, social isolation is extremely harmful to mental and even physical health. I wonder how the risk vs. reward looks for moderate drinking when you factor in the social effects.

In any case the old wisdom to never drink alone, and to drink in moderation, is probably good advice to follow.

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Anecdotally, I've noticed that people who don't drink at all tend to be more social in general, while people who often drink in social settings can find it hard to be social if they're not drunk (and often if both parties aren't drunk). Hence all the replies here that equate alcohol with being social and absence of alcohol with social isolation. Alcohol has become a crutch.

If you told a cocaine addict that cocaine was bad for them, and their response was "perhaps physically, but getting rid of cocaine and isolating myself socially would be bad for me to," it'd be a sign of how deep their addiction was. Alcohol is embedded in many people's lives, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

I've also found that trying to socialize with alcohol makes people much more prone to discord (including physical violence) than those who socialize without it. In a lot of ways it seems to function like other drugs - a shortcut that's easier but also inferior in the long term, more dangerous, and one that creates a dependency where people have a difficult time functioning in certain environments without it.

I once commented on Reddit that one beer per day theoretically makes you an alcoholic. To date that is my comment with the most down votes, with a net karma of minus several thousand points.

Apparently there is a large crowd out there for whom one beer per day is seen as perfectly acceptable.

Apparently there is a large crowd out there for whom one beer per day is seen as perfectly acceptable.

Regardless of judgement about what is "acceptable", the idea that a beer a day makes one an alcoholic severely downplays how serious alcoholism actually is.

Not to mention that a person being able to limit themselves a single beer each day pretty much rules out one of the main criteria of being an alcoholic, which is being unable to control how much a person drinks.

Hmm. I do see your point, but if anything I feel 'alcoholism' as a concept could use some 'downplaying'. Too many people think of an 'alcoholic' as, more or less, someone who has a red nose, looks homeless, and buys big cans of cheap beer or liquor.

Meanwhile, many people who are most certainly alcohol abusers tell themselves it's not a problem yet because they are 'not like that'.

I've talked to people who drank around the 'healthy limit' and still struggled because their intention was to not drink at all.

I quite like how generally speaking, our (or the more 'professional') views of addiction emphasize the subjectivity of it (while respecting the medical aspects).

A big issue with alcoholism is that nobody wakes up a 'serious' alcoholic. It's little steps, often with some big leaps along the way. Quite often, you don't realize you're addicted until well after you are. Making people aware that alcoholism is, usually, a sliding scale rather than some clear 'point' could lead to much more and better intervention before it gets too bad.

Huh? So people who can't sleep or feel uncomfortable without their evening beer aren't addicted, only because final stage alcoholism is a nightmare? Or alcoholism != alcohol addiction?

I didn't know what uncontrollable drinking is a necessity to diagnose alcoholism, but I'm luckily not involved in the topic. Do you have a reference to back that up?

Huh? So people who can't sleep or feel uncomfortable without their evening beer aren't addicted, only because final stage alcoholism is a nightmare? Or alcoholism != alcohol addiction?

I just don't see how a single beer, even every day, can be classified as alcoholism. A single beer is likely going to have a barely perceptible effect on all but the the most alcohol intolerant people out there. In the same way that a person who occasional takes a couple Tylenol wouldn't classify as being a drug addict.

I didn't know what uncontrollable drinking is a necessity to diagnose alcoholism, but I'm luckily not involved in the topic. Do you have a reference to back that up?

Pretty much every reference out there is going to include "inability to control consumption" as one of the main symptoms. But I'll pull one of the results I find off google.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/3909-alcoholi...

In the section for "What are the symptoms of alcohol use disorder?" how many of those symptoms could be considered for someone drinking a single beer? Maybe "Having cravings for alcohol." and that's really it.

> I just don't see how a single beer, even every day, can be classified as alcoholism.

From what I understand it's the regularity and habituation that's the problem. For many one beer a day is not a problem ... as long as that behavior is not challenged in any way.

I observed that in two friends of mine, both who definitely do not show obvious signs of alcoholism.

But both were challenged to stop drinking (one due to pragnency, one due to being asked to by his SO). Both really struggled to cut out that one beer a day from their life.

The now-mother managed to do it, but was very open about that it was hard for her. The other guy failed.

(Is this anecdotal? Yes. Am I in any way qualified to talk about this? No.)

One of my close family members is in AA and I’ve been a few times myself.

They describe it more as once you start drinking you can’t stop.

> I once commented on Reddit that one beer per day theoretically makes you an alcoholic.

This is in fact the viewpoint held by many medical professionals who regularly deal with addiction and mental health. It’s not only the amount you take in, it’s the function it serves.

that's like saying that playing candy crush for a few minutes per day makes you addicted to games, or that buying a thing on Amazon every day makes you a shopoholic.

alcoholism is much more serious than a drink per day.

Are you using "drunk" as a term for not being sober, or "drunk" in the common usage where someone is noticeably impaired by the quantity of alcohol they have drank?

Because it's quite possible to drink alcohol without actually getting the point of stumbling or slurring your words noticeably.

Uh correlation and causation? Perhaps you've simply noticed that are good at socializing in general need feel less the need for alcohol to help them socialize because, well, they're already good at it

For many years in my career I didnt drink. Then for a handful of years I did. For the last 3ish I havnt. Career wasnt improved at all by drinking. I don't feel awkward going to a bar with work folks and ordering a diet coke. No one gives a shit.

A lot of people who drink socially only drink one drink over the course of a night. They could happily leave it if they didnt feel the social pressure to do it.

> I don't feel awkward going to a bar with work folks and ordering a diet coke. No one gives a shit.

I don't drink at all either. Always order a tea.

But whether give a shit depends on society. Chinese become either offended or very disappointed if you don't drink with them. They don't see it as individual choice, they see it as a statement that you don't like the host or the group.

Do you evaluate every activity in your live solely wether it helps your career?

Nope. But people were commenting on how drinking or not drinking impacted their career.

If you actually want to know thought, my life overall has gotten much better since I stopped drinking. The only thing I've lost if 3am drunken yelling about music with a few friends on a regular basis. Which I'll still partake in but just leave at 1 instead of 3.

No longer being hung over, no shame cycles and depression the day/s after drinking, significant extra cash in my pocket, and no more acting stupid while drinking is all a huge plus. My mood is actually steady for the first time as an adult and that is hugely valuable.

I totally get it. I never had cigarette or alcohol, and obviously it was hard for me to blend in to certain groups. But then I also found other groups through common interest where I could blend in- video games and even IRL. But still I feel not having cigarette or alcohol caused some opportunity losses.

I’m a nonsmoking teetotaler in my 60s, had a successful tech career, and was never hindered.

The way I see it as alcohol makes it easier to relax and open up social settings, but definitely not necessary. In my experience the hard part of loneliness is to get out of your house and put yourself in social situation at first place, and alcohol definitely doesn't help there.

It was the healthy part of cigarettes, too. Remember leaving a bar for a smoke? Cue ritual social exchange.

Yeah it's a good point, although it does seem like the dangers of smoking are worse than drinking.

I'd like to see an analysis of the risk vs. reward of drinking that factors in social effects. It would be really hard to do a good job of though, because the social effects are not linear, and you could always argue that a drinker could do something else that's social instead.

Maybe smoking even comes out ahead with moderation and the right context. Precolumbian americans seemed to use tobacco in a fairly safe and socially beneficial way.

Except drinking often makes people smoke, and/or engage in other unhealthy activities they otherwise don't do when sober.

True. It's a really complex thing to look at, totally idiosyncratic and affected by societal norms as well.

I remember when it was the healthy part of the your career - effectively getting a meeting with the C Suite because you went out with them for a smoke. (I've never smoked but I clearly remember this as an advantage for colleagues)

It was a major storyline in Friends as well.

Very good point, but one exception is that alcohol consumption has been a thing across many cultures for literally thousands of years.

I thing that it is important to eliminate peer pressure related binge drinking in teens and young adults but ultimately I think being drunk is practically a rite of passage for most people in the world at this point and that this isn't a bad thing.

We'll probably end up making some Star Trek type synthahol before we eliminate occasional alcohol consumption and I bet that something like 95+% population consumption of lab grown meat will happen before similar figures happen for alcohol.

There already are plenty of alternative "alcohols" many of which apparently have cleaner/less toxic metabolic paths (in humans). People experiment with them and you can read about them on various forums.

From what I've read most of them dont taste that good, or are expensive, hard to come by etc and theres no clear upgrade.

I must say that I grow more and more tired of the way alcohol brings people together. obviously it brings everybody to the lowest common denominator - which is fun but also very shallow.

You don't need alcohol to have a social lubricant. In my culture where we don't drink alcohol, we gather over tea (or coffee). Healthy drinks and healthy gatherings.

Of course there’s not a need but for the people who use it they’re not drinking it for health and health gatherings. They’re drinking it for the courage it brings since they’re no longer “sober” them.

Perhaps a study of the health of societies that drink vs those that don't would be in order.

Of course

Most research is blind to secondary effects and unintended consequences of removing said "bad" thing

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