Sitting and standing at work (2015)
ergo.human.cornell.edu
ergo.human.cornell.edu
Typically, both people walk, using good Bluetooth headphones.
I was finding the combination of staring at the screen while coding, and then also during meetings, to be very straining.
Something about having to focus intently on the screen during a 1:1 was particularly tiring. Maybe because it's socially rude to look away while the other person is talking, so you end up really staring at the screen?
Now, instead, during a walking meeting, I exercise and get to look into the distance.
The most surprising thing for me was the ability to have technical conversations like this. I expected we'd really suffer without a whiteboard. Sometimes this is true, but I find we can have a lot of very technical conversations with voice only, and actually it's often easier than with video chat - because with voice only, I can focus more on the technical issues being discussed.
Finally, there are some days where I have a couple of hours walking meetings scattered throughout the day, and this is a lot of extra movement, which has to be good.
I wish there were more employers experimenting with different communication modalities like this; I feel the pandemic for all it's costs, has shown there are some great opportunities for other ways of working which have been underexplored.
It's kinda funny when he runs into neighbors or sees a weird reptile (he's in Florida)
We used to do this at the office and it was great. For private meetings between 2 people, go for a walk!
It has worked great for mastermind calls also.
But now at a new job that’s fully wfh it somehow didn’t stick. I tried a few times but I’m asked to participate too actively and people get frustrated with background noise because they aren’t using headphones at home. Laptop speakers are just not high quality enough to make it work even with voice isolation.
Plus I have too many back-to-backs nowadays and walking outside creates too much overhead. Kept missing things.
When we're in the same physical location, we do walking 1:1s and they work great. I'm not quite sure what exactly is different about them over Zoom or the phone.
My current startup hasn't had good luck with WHF and cross-site meetings using smartphones when someone is outdoors. Even just within the US, when someone is on their smartphone, MS Teams (mandated) or their network connectivity means their audio often gets choppy, they don't seem to be as engaged, etc. It's not as reliable audio as, say, a landline conference call from decades ago.
I think the missing whiteboard or shared screen would also be a problem in practice for me. The last 1:1 that I was in, Fri, for example, I did an impromptu screenshare of a visual that was important to what we were discussing, and that's very common.
Also, in that same example meeting, I took notes, and then afterwards updated a few Jira Tasks based the new information. My memory is fine, and I probably didn't need the notes that time, but I don't always know at the start of a meeting whether I'll need to take notes, nor how big the notes will be, nor whether the notes will be useful, nor whether it'll be worth spending time after distilling useful info into Jira/docs/comms, or just (I do this sometimes) copy&pasting the semi-useful raw notes directly into a Jira comment and moving on.
I'd much rather develop my use and interpretation of facial expressions than ignore them.
1) Laptop undocked / docked to monitors. For watching, screen share and often webcam. Sometimes take screenshots and notes if needed.
2) I tried an iPad Mini 5 after a recommendation and don't know how I lived without one for calls.
- It has become my primary meeting communication device.
- It provides most stable Zoom/Teams experience I've ever had - and the load doesn't impact my work machine.
- This device is all about maximising weight and size/volume. Small enough to carry, throw it in a sling for a walk and be able to pull it out if needed. great to carry a meeting or a call with me and be more useful than a phone.. Going for a walk, stretching out your legs, visiting the kitchen, and yes, sometimes even transferring the call to your car for audio while driving is smooth and generally seamless.
- I more easily see things on the meeting, interact, run a whiteboard, and contribute at a moment's notice if needed. Don't have to explain that I'm dialling by phone in or why. Being able to kick over to a whiteboard to doodle is handy compared to a powerpoint to get ideas across anyways.
- In Person - I almost always take the mini to meetings. The mini is not as distracting as a laptop keyboard or typing on a phone. Easy to bring up something to share and hand it over too.
- Great battery life, everything stays fast and doesn't need rebooting.
- I have muted nearly every notification on the iPad and it makes it even better to only work for me and not fight for my attention.
- Bluetooth works great, and the speaker/microphones are very decent.
Bluetooth Headphones:
- One tricky part of bluetooth headsets is noise cancelling might only be for what you hear, but te other party doesn't get noise cancelling from your mic and hear all your background.
- Currently I mostly use two pairs of Jabra 85t's that I alternate and charge since they only last 5h each. Only caveat of these is you can't use both the right earbud independently and not the left. Very decent noise cancelling for outdoors and indoors. I avoided the AirPods or others because I wasn't sure how good their noise cancelling was for the speaker (me) on a call.
- My interest is in that noise cancel on the mic for the other party. I'd love to hear what's working for you as there seem to be too many to keep up with. Heard good thigns about the Jabra 75e as well primarily for meetings and voice.
I’ve had managers who would do stuff like this, not in front of a computer. As you might imagine the experience working with them was not great and led me to change managers because they’d never recall what we talked about because they were distracted.
I'm not a big believer in making detailed notes during a 1:1
When necessary, I capture key points and action items in my phone while walking.
of course requires pre-recording consent. i could then annotate those notes later, which is helpful to me regardless (e.g. even in sitting meets, i will often take notes with a pen, and then later re-type key points (digitally) into a more focused version).
finally, any tips on microphones which filter out surrounding noise well (so the people on the call aren't bothered by my background noise)? plantronics voyager 6200 is the best i have used so far, and most reviews focus on your listening experience, rather than the listening experience of the other parties...
They're doing an awesome job with background noise cancellation and the spatial audio is superb (if your headphones and phone support it). It gives the feeling to be with the other people "in the same room".
At the end of each day I will convert my whiteboard notes into GitHub issues.
Every day begins with a blank board.
It took me a really long time to get into this habit, but I never forget anything now. Relying on others to take notes for you is a huge mistake.
Yes, +1 for this.
The pandemic made me unfit and put on weight. When I teach I pace about, gesticulate, use the whiteboard lots and generally burn a ton of calories. I really missed that. Desk-based admin or videoconf meetings are down my can-do list now. Trying to reserve chair time for coding.
I see other comments on "how do you take notes or send messages?" Mobile speech-to-text and text-to-speech are on my radar, but far from perfect results. I enjoyed the thread last week on throat mics and bone conduction headphones, possibly very useful tech to use for walking and working.
... or if you don't care, then don't, it would have just helped me if someone pointed this out to me earlier in my life, so I try to do it for other people.
But now it's under control again I need to find tricks to keep both the munching and the burn working together. Part of the walking benefit isn't just calorie output, it's the positive mental state that comes with the deal, that makes me not think about food for 8 hours at a time.
respects.
The shift to video and its static position was a huge backslide in my ability to do my job well.
I've taken this so far now that I bought a lavalier mic + wind guard to use with my phone, so that others don't have to suffer the audio quality of the AirPods mic. If I need to take notes, I type them into the iPhone Notes app. Transferring them to the 'source of truth' on the computer (Workflowy for me, probably Notion etc for many others) also has the benefit of reviewing everything.
Kinda hoping in the next decade or so we'll get good enough augmented reality that we'll be able to walk around in the woods with a floating terminal. Maybe a chorded keyer for input.
Wolfram has also had that hope, according to the linked article:
> I’d actually been thinking about walking and working for a long time. Twenty years ago I imagined doing it with an augmented reality display and a one-handed (chorded) keyboard. But the technology didn’t arrive, and I wasn’t even sure the ergonomics would work out (would it make me motion sick, for example?).
Pretty sensible that movement is key to solution. Long on-camera remote meetings always bug me and I tend to take a few minutes to walk around or pace if I can go camera off.
Before getting the desk I would get stiff in the day from over-sitting. Since getting the desk that is been corrected. When standing I find I am more expressive in calls and feel I fidget less while listening. I should note I sometimes catch myself with the desk at a weird height and I have taken on a gollum pose crouched on my chair.
I think I would agree that the level of computing work is slightly impaired while standing. I am not sure the reasoning. I feel my posture is good and it is comfortable to do. Perhaps cognitively this is not a task I have enough practice doing while standing.
The change of posture prevents my ass from getting sore from sitting on it all day.
Doesn't that make it hard to type, you ask? Well, the posted article does mention this:
> Treadmill, bicycle and elliptical workstations have been tested and typically shown to decrease computer work performance (typing and mousing slows down and significantly more mistakes are made).
But personally, I got used to it quickly and found that my performance on the computer did not decrease at all for programming related tasks, where ultra fine mouse movements are not necessary. If I were trying to play Call of Duty or something, then surely I would not walk.
The one time where I do find sitting to be ideal is when I really need to focus very intently on a task. For example, if it's an entirely new problem domain where I need to read a lot and focus at my maximum attention, then I need to be seated quietly, in a dim room, for a long period of time.
This is what I use. But, I would encourage you to do some quick searching on Amazon. There are some much cheaper options that may do all you need. Technically the treadly treadmill is for working out / running. It's HUGE attractive feature for me was that I could store it under my bed when company comes over and I need the office to look tidy.
Also worth mentioning that I have the treadly model 1 (they're on v2.0) and I've had to send it in twice for repair. It's now out of warranty, and if it fails again I will be screwed. Hence why I've done a quick Amazon search myself and seen that indeed there are some interesting options since my purchase a few years ago.
While that's a consideration if the question is "should we install these desks everywhere", if you already use a sit-stand desk and know you spend substantial time in both positions (as I do) that's not a reason to switch to full-time sitting.
now I have a gantry with a monitor that slides over my bed and can lie on my back with a kinesis keyboard at lap level and go for hours without any discomfort.
then just cut 1" tube to approximate size, assemble, and adjust. it rolls back and forth along both sides of the bed. I have it set about 3 feet above me, and I added a little shelf to hold a laptop and other crap, and wire tied a power strip to the side. bluetooth trackball and kinesis.
its a bit odd, but its really nice to be able to work in a neutral and relaxed position. I usually only do lying work, sitting work, or standing work for about an hour at a time.
I'm probably on the extreme end of "standers", as I routinely stand for 12+ hours at my computer. If my partner is not around, I'll not only stand for the full work day but also the entire evening. There may be days where the only time I sit is in the bathroom...
Only recently, as I allowed a bad diet and lack of exercise to become a problem, have I found myself less able to stand as much.
But the real issue is the forearms, wrists, and hands. I believe it should be possible to arrange my desktop in a way that gives me the same ergonomics as sitting (with respect to arms), but so far I haven't got it quite right.
Probably the right answer is just to cut my time at the computer in half and spend the other half of my time out being active :).
Note, I use 1 pouch per liter and usually rotate between a half a dozen different teas, so I'm not overdosing anything.
Cornell Ergonomics Web finds standing desks present their own issues - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2995194 - Sept 2011 (108 comments)
1. Stand for first ~1 hour of the day.
2. Depending on how I feel, alternate sitting/standing about every hour or so until lunch.
3. After lunchtime, stand for ~30-60 minutes.
4. Repeat step 2 until end of day.
I also walk for ~30 minutes/day in the mid-morning. When I return from that, I sit.
I also take eye breaks and try to use a pomodoro method (25 min working, 5 min. looking away/etc).
The key to feeling good seems to be variety, as the article implies. I can't ever go back to a sitting-only desk arrangement.
Drop me an email at "hello at danylo dot me", if you would like to beta test with me. Or watch an informal demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvzHrwjU9TU
I just put an hourglass on my desk, but out of reach. Sand runs out, get up to flip it. One nice feature is that it makes no noise so if I'm in a meeting and can't get up or attend to it, it isn't disrupting anything or interrupting anyone. Getting into the habit of looking up at it from time to time is also good for the eyes.
Except my current laptop, an X230, has the power coming out the rear. It physically presses the plug against with the floor when I have it tilted back partially resting on my shins/ankles while sitting cross-legged. The X61s was way better in this regard with its side mounted power jack. I should probably just upgrade to an AMD X13 already.
Also, having a laptop spend hours directly on your lap may not be good for your reproductive organs. Not sure on this one, though.
The configuration I end up using the most is with the laptop sitting flat on the floor, one foot resting planted next to the laptop, chin resting on that leg's knee. That side's arm snakes under that knee toward the keys. The other leg is tucked in like cross-legged, other arm's elbow barely touching that leg's calf, straight to the keys. This setup puts my chest against the thigh of the upright leg with the chin on it. It's a super relaxed configuration, and I'll just alternate which knee is up vs. tucked in periodically.
This setup works quite well with a wireless keyboard that has a built-in trackpad. The keyboard can move between the table, the floor, your lap, etc.
It's actually more annoying than just having the laptop on the floor and leaning my chest forward against a bent up knee.
But it is a nice option for variety sake, and in my setup it's also the orientation required to enjoy the windowed view outside. In terms of pure ergonomics and computing comfort though, it's not as good as just the floor.
There's also the whole multihead display thing that the low desk provides, it's always a compromise.
I spent the entire pandemic, i.e. almost two years, working from home from a chaiselongue that a friend of mine produces [1].
I only ever used it for reading books or watching movies via my projector before that.
It turned out it is perfect for doing computer work. The angle of legs to torso is between 130–140° on this piece of furniture.
I never had any fatigue in my spine, pressure points on my body or pain from tensed muscles anywhere. We're talking up to 12 hours/day on this with two 1h breaks in-between for lunch and dinner.
I always used my laptop but now I am building a setup with a wall-mounted arm to hold a screen and keyboard, below, that I can fold away.
I will post here once I have it set up.
[1] https://www.saschaulber.com/shop/coffy/ – it's currently unavailable because of post-pandemic related supply chain problems
When you're on cam, people can tell by movement that you're not sitting, but so far I'm not aware that's a downside.
For standing with laptop, when I had a proper desk, I'd use an egg crate-style container (with felt protector glued on) atop it, and be able to switch stand/sit within seconds.
Now I use my laptop atop a height-adjustable "lectern" on casters, and wheel it around to wherever I want to be, for light, etc. When not standing, I just carry laptop to a comfortable chair or other place I want to slouch with bad posture. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B079MH6BCL/
I've always just used barstools. You also need a rubber mat. Especially if the floor is concrete. Or really good shoes or work boots.
I lost about 30lbs. After about 3 months, I was able to stand for any length of time, without discomfort.
The social benefits were great too. Quick meetings, huddles, mood checks. Or my team would pull up barstools and use my desk as a shared workspace as needed. Probably the outcome those agile proponents were shooting for with their "standup meetings" stuff.
Eventually, about 1/2 my team also got standing desks. Then other teams joined the movement.
Adjustable desks seem like overkill to me. And per this article, the novelty quickly wears off. Use the money to buy more, better monitors instead.
What likely saved me was using workrave on my linux workstation: this is a software that forces you to take 30 sec break every 10 mins, and 5 (or 10 ?) mins every hour. It does so by disabling the keyboard (there is an escape hatch ofc). The hourly break, I would stand and walk.
I've been working as a SWE since then. Last few years, I started typing less (moved to management), but I am now > 40 and can still use keyboard w/o much trouble.
It is very easy to try workrave, so I would recommend people taking a look.
Alternatively, a standing desk where I have tons of movement and am constantly moving my feet and legs, I can stand at all day long. I'm sure it's distracting when I'm on camera, I'm constantly swaying from side to side.
I'm sure it's complicated and I know correlation is not causality. But my personal belief is that standing is a huge benefit for my back's health as a programmer.
Research shows that sitting all day is not good...and many people take that as meaning they should not sit at all. They think their only choices are sitting all day or standing all day.
You can see a similar thing with diets. Someone reads that lowering carbs might have some benefits so they try to change their diet from one that has 60% of its calories from carbs to one that has 10% or less. In reality they are likely to get many of the low carb benefits if they cut from 60% to 30-40%, and 40% is a heck of a lot easier to do than 10% (and so also something one is more likely to stick with long term and so actually have a chance to see benefits).
Look at discussions here on HN about climate change, health and safety regulation, crime prevention, privacy regulation, transgender issues, and no doubt many others and you'll find a lot of people overlooking the possibility that anything other than the most extreme opposite approaches might be viable.
Ah, I see you don’t have hour long zoom calls.
I attend most zoom calls muted with video off, in part so I can stand and walk around / do some lunges, and in part so I can zone out when the inevitable blowhards get the mike. Honestly this also helps when someone does have an interesting screen share.
But I have been told “video off” is passive aggressive so I don’t know how much longer I can pull this off.
“Video off” is often necessary, because your laptop runs low on battery, or has run too hot. Sometimes your Wi-Fi might just be bad, forcing you to audio only. A colleague of mine could not turn on video while the Anti virus was running, or the PC would get overloaded (hint: it was running all the time, as mandated by the security guidelines).
You might also not feel well with being watched because of personal reasons. And since it’s personal, it would not be the other person’s business.
If you are at home, video might interfere with other people’s privacy. Just think about the neighbor sunbathing while visible from your window. Don’t want to risk streaming things to work that are not safe for work.
Hamster Wheel workstation? This sounds compelling...
The same site has some illustrations showing how the think keyboard trays should be oriented, and they have straight wrists: https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.htm.... (I don't like the page that much, since it doesn't show what I think is the best option: a flat keyboard with elbows at 90 and wrists straight, which you can achieve either with a sufficiently low desk, which I do, or a flat keyboard tray under a higher desk.)
Disclaimer: Not a doctor, just summarizing my experience and what I've read.
If I'm feeling a little restless, I stand. If I'm a little tired, I sit.
There are some great, thin $3-400 treadmills that are light that can be used for walking as well for those interested.
As best I can interpret it, her ultimate conclusion is to hold no position for too long, and introduce novel movement into every activity (rather than, specifically, relegating "healthy" movement to an "exercise" period, while otherwise indulging in "unhealthy" movement for large blocks of time).
Combined with further research elsewhere — such as studies cited in Annie Murphy Paul's "Extended Mind"[1] and those on alleviating ADHD symptoms through movement[2] — it's possible that the ideal workplace is an unrecognizably dynamic one where even the most cerebral workers spring from treadmill to trampoline, to napping cot, to promenade. For just a taste of such dynamicity, here's a fast-forwarded hour of Katy Bowman fidgeting her way through the workday.[3]
Edit: I want to address something specific in the linked article. The claim that "Standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet."
I am absolutely certain that this is true, but it doesn't diminish the value of a standing desk. One principle I've absorbed from Bowman's writing is that all rest is strain, which is to say that to rest one limb one must rest on another, straining it. (Who hasn't woken up with a "crick in the neck" or another sign of slept-on strain?) The trick, then, is to rotate strain throughout all the various limbs of the body. Not only have all our limbs have evolved to handle certain loads, they've evolved to expect and dare-I-say crave certain loads in order to keep functioning. So, yes, "standing puts greater strain on the circulatory system and on the legs and feet," but a degree of strain is essentially therapeutic.
0. https://www.nutritiousmovement.com/product/move-your-dna-res...
1. https://anniemurphypaul.com/books/the-extended-mind/
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201...
For example, arm rests can be beneficial in helping someone with carpal tunnel issues, but at the same time, it can be detrimental to the ulnar nerve. Standing and sitting both have their own upsides and downsides. Your actions are probably more akin to rotating the tires on your car. It doesn't stop the wear from happening, but it does so more evenly and you'll get more mileage out of them by doing so.