Salaries are terrible in France - a senior dev earns maybe 60k euros (~60k USD).
Where the 60k€ comes from is... complicated, but has to do with the distinction between taxes, employee social contributions and employer social contributions. That's three layer of "taxes" or tax-like stuff, giving 4 different ways to express the salary: "total cost", "gross", "net", and "net after taxes". [1] Usually companies advertise the "gross" salary.
Yes, taxes are really high, but that includes a generous retirement pension, a generous employment insurance if you lose your job, you won't get bankrupt if you get sick, universities and Grandes Écoles are free [2] so your kids won't need to get into debt to study.
That said, overall you are probably better off at a FAANG in SV...
[1] Calculator: https://mon-entreprise.urssaf.fr/simulateurs/salaire-brut-ne...
[2] Except fancy private business schools that can be very expensive. Most STEM Grandes Écoles are free.
EDIT: seems I'm wrong, and actually it is similar in the US. My bad!
Are the France state pensions that much higher than in the US? Average US social security pension is around $1700 per month IIRC.
France: €1,714 ($1,714 USD) per month in 2022 [1]
US: $3,345 per month for someone who files at full retirement age [2]
[1] https://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_3.html
[2] https://www.aarp.org/retirement/social-security/questions-an...
Someone at 60k€ should expect a total retirement of roughly 3,200€/month (back of the envelope calculation). Someone making 150k€ would expect a retirement of about 7,000€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). Making 300k€, you would expect close to 14k€/month (again, back of the envelope calculation). I think that's pretty much the maximum you can get, it doesn't scale much further than that.
Financial concerns didn’t weight at all on my mind when deciding to move here, so I can’t tell you if it’s better or worse.
I strongly doubt it’s better, especially for retirement, but I could be wrong.
So I’m not even sure why I’m arguing about cross border salaries or retirement benefits…
The US social security is not a pension system. It's a welfare system designed to pay for basic necessities for those with no other substantial income. Its nominal target is replacing 40% of income, though that decreases with income. Mid-income people already receive less than 40% of their former wages.
Mandatory pensions typically replace 60-80% of income. Their purpose is to support retirement without a substantial decrease in quality of life. The French system, as far as I understand, is rather generous, aiming to replace 70-80% of income.
Lol, probably? At FAANG, you can retire with a house at 35-40. In France, you retire with a small flat at 70.
while working at a FAANG? hardly. sure, you'll be paid 150kE instead of 300k$, but it's still more than enough to be in the top 5% of the country
I'm one of the few that left to the US and followed the money, but I was the only person in my class going abroad every time I've done it. That being said, I'd be nice to go back to Europe just for the quality of life.
Also, the 60k are probably before income tax, which as far as I understand, is higher than in the US.
Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better, and in every case you also count in universal healthcare.
Easily does a lot of heavy lifting. I'd doubt you'd find a 30m2 in a nice neighborhood. Source: I looked last year. I was also specifically talking about buying.
> Of course if you live somewhere else than Paris it's even better
You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job…
> and in every case you also count in universal healthcare.
It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free".
Paris has the largest job market but there still a lot of jobs around the country. In my area, which couldn't be further away from Paris, senior profiles take 65-80k gross/year.
meh. I make less than 3200 net/month and iI live inside a 33m2 2 pieces in a completely normal part of the 20eme, if I'd go to other still nice but cheaper parts of Paris/banlieue prochaine on the metro I could probably do even better.
About buying, I've lived in places with an higher buying cost/rent price. But still, the market is mental and buying an house in the 2nd most expensive city in the world is completely different to live a decent life off a salary like 60k/year (which is medium-high compared to the average one in Paris, which is 48k/y).
Of course more aristocratic arrondissements are much more expensive and the Paris house market is completely mental, but that's another issue.
> You'll probably be making less than 60k in that case, if you can even find a job…
Mah! Other sibling comment already addressed that
> It depends. If you break your leg or something else critical, sure. If you need any other kind of care (hospital stay, glasses, or even some dental work) you better have a "mutuelle", which seems similar to the US model of employer provided health insurance, in that not everyone has it. Also, this comes out of your 60K, and part of it is included in the tax base, so it isn't completely "free".
It's mandatory and for the bigger part payed by the employer. Anyway, that's the concept of "taxes" in Europe. One could argue that the US model of health insurance is better, but that's easily proven false.
I should hope they can 'kinda easily' rent that.
Remember that in the US most decent jobs (certainly any which would pay €60k in France) include health insurance so then universal healthcare isn't such a big benefit either.
Ask the Germans, where you basically have to wait for someone to die, so that an apartment comes on the market for renting.
Maybe it's better in France.
So you work full time in a highly skilled career and you can afford to... rent a flat, as long as you keep working full time forever.
That's.... nice, I guess?
fixed that for you. welcome to modern society :)
(also, you kinda forget to realize that 60k is much higher than most of what skilled job positions currently offer, except for the tech bubble, where senior profiles in Europe - especially in Paris - make way more than 60k)
"Congrats, you're not homeless!"
60,000 USD is 58,000 Euros at current exchange rates, which equates to a post-tax annual income of 37500 Euros in France.
If you were only supporting yourself, that would place you in the top 1.6% of earners in the world. It would be an effective income 17x the global median.[1]
Now, these are estimates, and some of the underlying data is outdated, but the basic point is clear. It would provide you with, relatively speaking, a historically and globally unprecedented level of affluence. After that point more money is going to do almost nothing to improve your well-being - doing creative and meaningful work, having good relationships, having a well balanced mind, etc., is going to be far more important.
[1] https://howrichami.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i?income=...
So ... yes, technically, if you earn 37500 Euros post-tax, you are the 2%. And if you live in Laos, you're living the good life. In Paris, however, things will be hard.
[1] https://kagi.com/proxy/5653f337-ac74-470a-8651-231e5f3fee60....
Paris is a collection of shoebox apartments, if you want to have a larger house, don't go live in Paris.
France is a two-system country. In "real France" (Switzerland and Luxembourg), SWE average salary is CHF 1,06,713 per year. (1 CHF ~= 1 EUR)
I recently interviewed around (in France), the low ball offers were 90k euro base.