Where Expats Should (Not) Move in 2022
internations.org
internations.org
Thailand going 4 years. Vietnam just under a year.
Both places excellent to live. Finances go very far. Extremely easy to get along with people. Never experienced racism. Cops have been super friendly.
Been a lot in Indonesia also… very very good for expats and extremely friendly people.
Japan was the least friendly and I would probably never live there for a long stretch of time.
Dating was easiest in Vietnam followed by Thailand. Hard in other places.
Never really encountered the “farang” tax in Thailand. Really it mostly comes up when you go to official tourist sites.
For normal everyday encounters like markets, stores, street stuff - it really does not exist.
If you dress like a clueless farang who left their balls at the airport people will try to extract more from you.
Overall based on my talk with Thai friends and foreigners, it seems I am treated a lot better than most white foreigners.
Go figure.
Racism is everywhere. It depends on what you do with it and if you spend your life being a victim.
I’ve chosen to not even notice it my whole life and so I don’t feel disadvantaged oppressed in the slightest on any part of the globe.
This. Whenever I hear a young Black person saying they want to move or visit Japan, I say one thing: "Don't. Go to Korea instead."
Japan is just not a friendly place. Yes, people will be polite and kind -- but friendly...hmm...This is coming from a long time resident. I met more long term close friends in 1 year in Korea than 10 in Japan. I'm talking people that I consider family. Of all the countries I have visited, Korea has been the most warm, welcoming, and overall fun.
When I hear my White friends discuss their experiences in Japan, it literally feels like they are describing a different country. I tell them sometimes: "We live in very different Japans."
Haven't been to Vietnam, yet. But I have heard good things.
There is also socialized medicine and the ACC covering all accidents on NZ soil is great, so comparing costs directly isn't the same.
However not everything is great, it does feel a little isolating being on the other side of the world on a tiny island and their covid controls did start to feel a little draconian. (Even after we got more than 90% of the eligible population vaxed we were still in a strict lockdown with almost no-one allowed through the borders).
Overall I was sad to leave, but our families are both in the US and ultimately it was time to come home.
That being said, there was still a sizable group in support of continued restrictions both on the population and on the border.
New Zealander here.
NZ could have remained in isolation, but it didn't.
The government basically decided we needed to open borders and that we would get Covid - borders were opened enough that it was inevitable it would get through.
I can say that successfully eradicating covid in 2020 was awesome (but 20/20 hindsight that the costs were worth it because it worked).
Even then, we still made some very poor decisions, like every country did in its own ways. Taiwan made amazingly good decisions I thought (they started their SARS response in Dec 2019, tracking and isolation).
Disclaimer: just my opinion based on what I saw. I don't have any actual insider information on the government decisions.
USA will have a 2-3 month heads up if the only intelligence they have is satellite photos.
They could also just blow up all government buildings from afar
To put it another way, they considers it to be a civil war, and will give plenty of warning in order to convince everyone else to stay out of the way.
But, no one can foresee the future
It also depends on where you're applying for stuff in Italy. For example, I had to apply for a Permesso di Soggiorno (kind of the Italian green card) to stay longer than normal for a sabbatical. In Rome it was essentially impossible: unbelievable intentional roadblocks were put up at every stage, all the way down to the application station being in a pseudo-prison far outside of Rome with no bus service. Very clearly designed, at all cost, to prevent people from applying. I eventually gave up applying in Rome. BUT in Forli, in Northern Italy, application was a breeze, straightforward and fast, helpful service with a smile.
'The Italian criminal system is broadly an adversarial system and is governed by the presumption of innocence. The burden of proof falls on the Public Prosecutor, who must prove the guilt of an accused person. The standard of proof required is "beyond a reasonable doubt". Unless this standard is met the defendant must be acquitted. The court must consider and evaluate any doubt a reasonable person could have.'[1]
[1] https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/w-007-7826?contex...
The problem Amanda Knox faced -- and I presume this is really boiling down to her -- is that Italy doesn't have double jeopardy. So the prosecutor kept retrying her, and the court kept acquitting her.
If you don't like that I suggest you also stay away from Japan, among many Asian countries. Though Japan has double jeopardy, sort of, police can and will arrest you, hold you for a significant amount of time, then release you prior to trial and re-arrest you again over and over again, just by adding new trivial charges. This is what happened to Carlos Ghosn (whether he deserved it is another question).
I agree with you that Italy is probably hands down a better choice - but if you want to live in a city - it is tough to beat the nicer neighborhoods in Mexico City for quality of life and affordability and being in the same time zone.
If you want to live in the hills, or a small town, Italy is tough to beat.
Could still be in the same time zone (or close) as my job so no issues there, CDMX is extremely affordable by US standards, the city is beautiful (in the nicer neighborhoods) and the weather is great during the dry season.
Plenty of co-working spaces or cafes to go to, and the city is very friendly to expats from my experience. Helps also knowing Spanish but I know plenty of friends who didn't know a word of it and enjoy their experience.
People are friendly, but in my experience they were distant. It took a long time to make friends with folks (who weren’t other expats). Maybe because the houses are smaller so folks don’t invite one another over, or because of the kinda pervasive (?) social club scene where people go instead of bars or restaurants, but I found it tough to engage with folks outside of work while I was there.
It’s kinda a shame, since I’d love to go back there - if I could figure that bit out!
Especially in contrast to Germany where I also lived and worked abroad and people were very open and inviting (and also friendly).
New Zealander here - I'll state one opinion although it is controversial and maybe totally irrelevant to you personally.
Plenty of Americans are socially unaware of the cultural differences between New Zealanders and Americans, because the differences are not so blatantly obvious like in many other countries.
I've result is that NZers stereotype Americans, and there is some negative bigotry towards Americans in general. The default is a negative sentiment towards most Americans, so becoming friends is an uphill battle. We generally won't correct your social faux pas++: you need to have the skills to read social cues and fit in. Your mental bullying government isn't helping all you'ze either.
The American tourists I saw in Mexico were some of the most obnoxious wankers I have ever seen (although exceeded by epically rude Russian tourists in Sri Lanka, and even they are exceeded by some other countries' citizens). I generally like the Americans I randomly met in the USA weirdly enough.
Not sure what I could recommend. Perhaps some serious self deprecation would help (à la British humour). Maybe find one person who will give honest feedback when you screw it up.
Some places are not as friendly as others. Go to Wellington if you are working in NZ - it is far more international and welcoming to people from different strokes. Great place!
Anyways, could have been anything, not just our typical anti-American sentiment. We are generally still welcoming compared with many countries.
What I said above is likely similar in Australia.
Moreover, that "people aren't friendly to expats" has got to be the most incorrect thing I see on this list. Who are these people running into? Once you get into a conversation with people, cats are generally cool and can talk a bit about themselves, just like in any country. They aren't as courteous as people were in the say the Midwest (where people are very very nice even to strangers) but I do not get at all that people are unkind. If anything, I find people are curious about you.
If people are reacting to how some situations people are busy, that's just how it is. In certain situations like buying food at a hawker centre you just have to keep things moving along. If the worker isn't busy (likely they won't be) they can be more "friendly" I guess.
with thailand i’ve heard stories of “farang prices” where you pay 10x for medical care compared to locals.
a friend of mine in laos had to travel to thailand every time he needed care.
Which is still next to nothing, isn't it?
In the case of the latter, usually foreigners pay 5X for entry -- this is government mandated.
Now, as for the former, it's more for gullible tourist fresh off the boat. I was drunkenly making my way home one night, and hopped in a taxi. Guy told me something like 1,500 baht ($40 USD). I just laughed at the guy and said "meter", followed by him giving me a knowing look and a laugh as he turned on the meter. It was a 5 minute drive and ended up costing like 50 baht...If you know, then you know.
Aside from the constant absurd and abusive racism handed out by Thai police in BKK, the country is an amazing place to live. Safe and friendly. And, I want to make it clear that I only received racist attacks (physical and verbal) from cops in BKK and nowhere else in the country -- but of course, everything became fine once they realized I was an American...
you said you experienced racism, that's what I meant, which I thought was pretty clear by the context of people were racist against you until they realized you were american, which is the heart of my question - why is being american an acceptable form of whiteness to the people who were racist against you
I don't mean to be flippant, I really mean to give it a thought as to why you made the assumption.
I'm curious, when people misunderstand some context on the internet that has to do with race - do you often find yourself thinking it has racist undertones?
I don't see how this is confusing. Also, I never clarified any tax as being for white people. The only thing I clarified was that the word "farang" is typically used excluisively for white foreigners.
I have no comment on the absurdity of your last sentence, btw.
The only absurdity here is that instead of attempting to interpret my questions hospitably, you immediately went on the defensive and then refused again to address my question with a lovely touch of asking me to ponder deeply why I would mistakenly think you were white. I'm not sure what fantasy land you live in, but the people I talk too aren't just sitting at their keyboards hoping everyone on the other end is white.
It's pretty gross that I replied with the most sincere curiosity and ended up with some not-so-veiled racism implications.
Maybe you should consider you might not have the full context of the conversation instead of launching into a rant.
The farang only for white people is something that just comes up here sometimes. At one point we tried to get the Thai colleagues to call black expats "farang dam". Didn't catch on haha.
Foreigner tax is the correct way to call it because pricing in national parks is tied to citizenship not race
I am not.
I was also confused. The first paragraph requires clarification.
Specifically what you mentioned: the farang tax mostly applying to white foreigners followed by an anecdote of an incident of the farang tax in action. It biased me to believe the commenter was indeed, white.
The weird reply back when you asked for clarification was obviously immature and absurd. The second Expat chiming in was not helpful either - as if that person’s understanding is some global expert consensus on the comment and you’re a bizarre 5 sigma deviation.
Maybe they’re expats for good reason - they can’t communicate effectively on even the simplest of little things (with peer commenters). So what do they screw up?
When I tried to explain (several times), instead of taking a step back and trying to understand -- you doubled down on your own misunderstanding and accused me of seeing racist undertones everywhere.
Again, I can only assume English isn't your native language, hence the confusion.
I can only assume the confusion arose from the person in question either:
1. not being a native English speaker
2. assuming I was white
Hope that clears things up. I really don't know how I can make this any clearer aside from the lot of us hoping on a plane to BKK and you experience the place yourselves.
Until I read the part about BKK police giving you physical abuse, then I figured you might be non-white because countries outside US are far more racist, generally speaking, than the US. The less developed a country is, the more openly racist it gets (the rich ones can also be racist but do so more covertly). And generally speaking racism against whites is not very common, because (generally) whites bring money and are (generally) considered a positive thing to have around. There are exceptions like maybe American troops in Okinawa but we’re talking about generalizations here.
I now think you are Asian, because that’s the second large demographic in tech. My other assumptions still apply.
Apologies for the unsolicited reply here, I just wanted to make N>1 as far as preconceptions go.
I'm actually a multi-generational mixed person. Both my parents and all four of my grandparents are "multi-racial" -- based on the current definitions of race. But that's a whole different conversation. Don't want to give out any more details than that for privacy reasons.
I normally tell people to stay away from getting involved at all with drugs here, for your own safety. Obviously that may be s little overboard depending on what fits your fancy but I stand by it.
Currently live in Lima, Peru coming from being in CDMX for 6 months and Guadalajara for a couple as well.
Outside of there, it's a crapshoot. Could be very safe, could be VERY unsafe... In a way you don't see in many parts of the US or EU.
Coyoacán is VERY beautiful, but there's not as much to do over there for an expat. It's still really nice.
Condesa is considered the more Hipstery part of the city, nightlife and everything.
Polanco is more of an upscale, very international type of vibe.
Roma Norte is more artsy imo but similar to Condesa as well. Plenty of good food as well.
Coyoacán is more traditional Mexican.
Maybe if for them Indonesia is Bali, that is ok, but the rest of Indonesia would not be on my top even not in the worst also. Just average.
But nowadays, it's usually high income immigrant westerners who don't want to be considered 'immigrants' because that's for <whisper> poor people.
After I've dealt with the US immigration processes years ago, I just call everyone who lives in a different country an 'alien'. Fuck this doublespeak.
This article actually features the company which published the 'study': https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20170119-who-should-be-... See if you can ignore the neocolonial tone and figure out expat vs immigrant vs migrant.
Rich country to anywhere: "expat".
Historically, though, immigrants were permanent while expats were expected to go back at some point.
Expat = temporary
Immigrant = permanent
And sure, lower income foreign workers might have it worse than rich foreign workers, but they still come for the benefits.
This report, however, does not appear to include them in their survey, suggesting a mismatch between your definition, and that used by an organization which claims to be "the largest global expat network" with "4.5 million members."
Indeed, you'll be hard pressed to find poor temporary workers from less developed described as "expats".
For example, I've noticed few people refer to the ~200K low-skilled temporary Mexican laborers in the US under the H-2A visa as "expats", even though they fit your definition.
I've further noticed that "illegal immigrant" is used even for people who intend only temporary residence in the destination country.
No, I'm saying exactly the opposite. They aren't, they're non-immigrant temporary workers, thus technically 'expats'. However, they're more often referred to as 'migrant workers' and this report, for example, does not include them.
Another example is Mexico. There are a couple hundred thousand Americans living and working in Mexico. They're considered expats. But a Mexican temporary visa holder is considered either a migrant worker or a legal alien.
"American expatriates in London"
It had generally been used for retired people, but remote (pandemic) workers have greatly expanded the word's meaning and usage.
Or at least that's what matches the usage I've seen the best.
UK is listed as 37 and I’d love to know why.
https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/
the UK scores below median on Quality of Life (Travel & Transit, Environment & Climate, Leisure Options, Health & Well-Being, Safety & Security) and Ease of Settling In (Local Friendliness, Finding Friends, Culture & Welcome), as well as Salary & Job Security and Work & Leisure.
it's especially low on Personal Finance (50) and Housing (42)
compare that to germany:
high on Quality of Life and Working Abroad (Career Prospects, Salary & Job Security, Work & Leisure, Work Culture & Satisfaction), median on Personal Finance, but extremely low on Ease of Settling In and on Expat Essentials (Digital Life, Admin Topics, Housing, Language)
the low score on ease of settling in is pretty much why i left germany.
My wife and I are American but we’re in the UK now, just to see how we like it before committing to a permanent move. We’ve also looked at Germany but I’ve struggled with the language, and although she’s conversationally fluent, I feel like forming deep friendships would be difficult.
my personal experience is that i went wherever i could find a job and i stayed there as long as the job would keep me unless i found another reason to stay. i am happy to share more details by email. (see my profile)
> Expats find it hard to pay without cash (20% vs. 8% globally)
So what? It's safe to carry cash in Japan and you can get cash at every 7/11 of which there is almost always one within 4 minutes walking distance
> and are unhappy with the availability of government services online (35% vs. 21% globally).
I have pretty much never needed government services in my life. That would be slightly inconvenient for the once every 2 or 3 years I'd have to interact with the government seems like an extremely trivial point and nothing to do with actual quality of life
> The country also lands in the bottom 10 for both the Ease of Settling In (45th)
True for many
> — 30% find it hard to get used to the local culture (vs. 19% globally)
Yea, you need to speak Japanese. You can get by but it's not like moving to Scandinavia or Western Europe where many countries you can trivially get by without speaking the local language. You can add Singapore and maybe Malaysia to that list but Taiwan being near the top? I'd expect the same there. Either you learn Mandarin or life is going to be lonely and you'll be left out of most stuff.
> Moreover, 25% feel they are not fairly paid for their work (vs. 20% globally).
This is very true. Engineers for example probably have a cap of $80k year unless you work for a western company.
That and the economic bomb that everyone keeps kicking down the road...
In Sweden those sort of things can be handled online. And I don't even remember the last time I had to fill out a form with my information there because it just happens automatically with the personal number system.
I definitely hate this part about Japan. Then there's other crap like how services often won't accept bank account names registered with roman characters. But banks here won't allow you to open an account unless the account name matches your immigration card exactly, so if your name is written in roman characters then you are stuck with that, which basically creates a catch 22 type of situation.
Finally, digital services here, especially the public ones are typically abysmal.
In a nutshell, dealing with Japanese authorities and their apps and forms and stamps and whatnot feels like you are interfacing with a manual, paper based system from the 60's but with the added unpleasantness of user hostile apps and webservices that seem to have been built using a 90's tech stack even though they just came out in the last few years.
Not sure what conversion rate you used (8M or 10M JPY?) but in my 5 years of living here this cap has been increasing steadily. As a senior you would have been laughed at if you asked for $80k 5 years ago but today it's the median for top local companies.
• Mexico, Indonesia, Taiwan, Portugal, Spain, the UAE, Vietnam, Thailand, Australia, and Singapore are the best destinations for expats in 2022.
• The worst destinations for expats are Kuwait (52nd), New Zealand, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Luxembourg, Japan, South Africa, Turkey, Italy, and Malta (43rd).
The bit about a "lack of culture and nightlife" is... interesting. What kinda culture were they looking for?
The criticism that it's hard to get a job implies that the people answering it aren't coming in on skilled migrant visas, as those require an employer to a) sponsor you and b) document that they weren't able to fill your role in NZ, so you'd already have a job.
So it makes me wonder if the people answering it had come over on student visas that became residency visas after completing their studies, in which case you're competing with all the other graduates (and we have had problems with private training establishments that were effectively set up to sell visas, so the "level 6 diploma in Business" you acquire from them has no value in the job market.
If you can afford the premium, really like outdoors stuff and want a relaxed lifestyle then it's a good place to be, otherwise I think it's pretty bad.
Things you would take for granted in many other parts of the world are either very expensive or just don't exist. There's also much less variety of things because it's a small place.
UAE with wife or as a woman, that was good one.
Australia with their fascist gov and COVID insanity on par with China? No thanks.
In Vietnam you will be cheated on every step unless you speak Vietnamese, as one expat told me you have basically 3 prices - local, foreigner and tourist price, you can move from tourist to foreigner price but it's hard to get to local price. Honestly I tried the local prices by looking how much locals pay and some sellers straight up refuse, sometimes you win, but it's very very tiring. On the bright side at least they are not smiling while cheating you (like in Thailand) so you can see at least honesty in their face and stay vigilant.
I am not sure which place revealed to be spared from that (probably Switzerland, Uruguay and Sweden - not sure at all).
Haha! Sounds like we're better off without you, mate. Keep on entertaining from afar though.
Paphos - British Limassol - Russians