The Creepiest Cycling Condition: Shermer’s Neck
welovecycling.com
welovecycling.com
10 years later I have not fully recovered. Doctors couldn't help (or see anything wrong on MRI), but said a lifetime of sitting in front of a screen 8 to 12 hours a day was probably the culprit. Solution was, unfortunately, to quit working. I'm typing this sideways laying down on a couch. If your neck starts to act funny, give it a rest!
(Building some contraption with PVC pipes as in this article had not occurred to me, but it seems like it would just lead to other muscles being overused, instead, with new injury somewhere else eventually)
I guess my point in sharing this is that nerve pain can be very hard for doctors to diagnose, much less treat, but don't give up.
This is different from a kinesitherapeut who uses information from doctors or imaging to make sure documented movements.
You get reimbursed for the latter but not for the former.
I did not see any improvement, (the second time things briefly got worse), but I admit I get frustrated quickly, and did not stick with it long enough. I was never sure I was "doing it right."
Thought about trying again, at home, but I don't know what is safe to try. When this started, I'd bought a neck pain book (written in the early 2000's) that had example exercises. I showed the 1st physical therapist (a PhD), and he said "Oh no, don't do those exercises, we don't do those any more. That will make things worse!". So I'm leery of trying random youtube video exercises... and due to Covid, not quite ready yet to go to in-person PT again.
Brent brookbush is pretty good institute that helped me gain insight with a strong evidence based focus. YouTube channels tend to be copycat videos that really don’t address all the different options and modalities.
Beyond that simply doing more exercise helped, I stopped focusing on my neck specifically after the initial stage. Swimming is great since it reduces load.
I don't remember exactly - but the idea was, if you could feel them bulge in the front of your neck as you lifted your head, you were doing it wrong - you did NOT want to use that muscle group.
(I should have taken notes when doing PT, I wish I could remember all this now)
As general advice, almost everyone these days has some variation of upper crossed syndrome given the way they use laptops and phones, so upper and mid lats, rotator cuff muscles and some neck stabilizers are weak, which leads to slouched posture. I can't say this is specifically the type of corrections you need, but hopefully this useful routine will help otherd avoid such problems (I'm not affiliated it's just a good video):
Changing your habit is another good idea. Standing desk/platform, 10 minute break every hour and walking around, juggling, just moving a bit.
The problem for me was that intermediate stage where the earlier practices stop providing benefit. Which is good by itself, it means the practice worked! But you also are not at a normal healthy level yet.
Working on your posterior chain becomes more important in my experience, like lunges, walking upright and heel-to-toe, and something like foundation training (look it up- really innovative)
I'm sure if most of them had gotten this during training, they would have taken the time to recover.
the addicts _must_ ride every day, the ride is a major mental and physical block to them feeling good.
the users ride to burn out anxious energy, it doesn't need to be daily, and you focus on sustainable riding so that your coping mechanism doesn't stop working.
i've been in both groups, and tend toward the second now a days. my uncle is in his 60s and his "ideal" day is wake up a 5am, ride till noon, eat one meal, go to bed. his kids recognized this and a few have become users while a few are addicted to it.
Differently from sport, there’s no such thing as low drug usage being healthy.
I would argue this, as ex. medical cannabis licences are becoming more common, not to mention all the drugs that are prescribed and used healthily/responsibly (not to say all prescribed drugs are properly used).
Much safer than heroin, but a deadly poison compared to e.g. LSD.
And coffee is not just caffeine like tobacco smoke is not just nicotine.
Ironically, it’s easier to ruin your body for an afternoon than to train diligently for years, so the problem has persisted.
Triathletes are even more crazy, though.
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2021/11/30/how-many-hours...
So even the top world tour cyclists are only doing 30+ hours per week for a fraction of the year. Compare that to professional marathon runners who are probably doing roughly 15 hrs/week at their peak. It's a lot... seriously.
The Tour de France isn't really useful for this comparison, as the riders have to perform at top speeds for several weeks so the riders have to not overdo it and risk not being able to perform well in the following days.
To be clear I am not saying that the average person couldn’t build up to 30+ hours a week of cycling. Much the opposite - the point of my initial post was that it’s relatively easy to rack up long hours on a bike, especially if you go at a slow pace. But rather that most people do not have the time or the motivation to spend that many hours on a bike, unless they race professionally.
Looking through Strava, there is nobody in my area who has averaged more than 15 hours a week over the last 4 weeks. My weekly average is well below that. Do you log your workouts in Strava or some other app? What is your actual weekly average time spent?
I think the TdF comparison is useful because it gives a rough idea of the sort of distance you can cover in 30 hours/week. Something on the order of 3000 km per month, which again I just don’t ever see any amateur riders doing in my area.
If you’re really riding that much, or even half of that, then kudos to you. I would love to be able to put in those kinds of numbers. But I still think it’s really rare for amateurs, and requires an obsessive dedication to the hobby.
Yeah, of course not. I didn't catch that part.
I don't use a tracking app, but I pretty much always take the same route to some mountains. Getting there takes around 45-50min. Then there's an ~800m climb with up to 20% incline. How long that takes me really depends on my form that day, and I don't really care about the competitive aspect. On some days I'll cycle a bit deeper into the mountains to get to the next peak, but that's really stretching it and I'd usually need to bring some extra calories (I do this on an empty stomach usually).
I don't think you quite realize how uncommon your level of fitness is
So unless you live in a cold and flat-as-a-pancake area there's really no way to classify 15 miles as easy for anyone but seriously fit people. Even then, it's not something a non-athlete (amateur or otherwise) can just pick up in two weeks.
Cooooolsies...
think of it as a libation to his memory.
Luckily, for me, it came at the very end and I was able to finish.
Worse was that I compressed my ulnar nerve and had loss of feeling and tingling in my left arm for 6 months.
Lots of good memories from that ride.
Even finding a diagnosis was a struggle.
Spending 8 days in near-constant intense aerobic activity on 1 hour of sleep is likely to cause lifelong health repercussions. We should not be glamorizing these people.
the most dangerous part here is probably the chance of having an accident on that little sleep, but there's no need to be hyperbolic, there's very rarely lasting health repercussions to short term stress like this (physical at least) in healthy adults, soldiers go through similar conditions in training and during war. Sometimes for much longer. You'd be surprised how much your body can actually take. (and recover from)
Reminds me of another comment today elsewhere in HN citing the classic "the spirit is strong but the flesh is weak."
And I am absolutely fascinated by it.
I had not known about it until I past a woman biking across Arizona with a support car following. When I got to the campsite (vacation with the family), I googled and determined she was participating in a race called "RAAM". I couldn't believe it was a non-stop race across the U.S. Sleep, or any kind of rest, is a liability.
I guess I had expected the race to be broken up across a dozen days or so with checkpoints and times taken and added to declare the winner by race's end. But, no, it's just crazy.
And I guess it's the thing that endears me so much to our species.
If you mean I'm imposing my beliefs on the support staff from the perspective of a keyboard warrior - you're also right. But I'm not actually stopping anyone from doing anything. Just stating my opinions.
Basically if your actions cause me empathetic harm I will not involve myself in them.
Personally, I think responsibility for action terminates at the actor, and that economic transactions do not carry with them moral responsibility for the prior or future actions of the involved parties. You should be able to use those axioms to derive quite a lot actually.
> empathetic harm
I've not hear this before, can you elaborate? Surely if you don't believe that you know better for people then you have no reason to feel empathy that they're not asking for, right?
Edit: I'm surprised you would dissent to support some endeavor based on your own personal beliefs, but refuse to state or elaborate on the beliefs in question.
I would actually like to try bike touring and dream of crossing the entire U.S. by bicycle. But RAAM sure sounds like a drag.
If they’re driving on public roads and are sleep deprived then they are endangering others.
Rather, no one should ever, ever want to do it.
While the cannonball express is definitely dangerous to others, if someone wants to ruin their neck cycling across the globe, be my guest who am I to say no
My point being that if you're going to make that argument, then effectively what you really need to do is make an argument for where specifically to draw that line, and that's a much harder argument to make.
Some people love spending their time doing stuff that is inherently dangerous, even if it means that they might not live as long as the rest of us. And why stop them, seems like hell to be forced to live a long but unfulfilling life. We all die in the end anyway.
Also, no, most drivers are obviously not aware of the dangers. Anyone on two wheels who wants to survive treats every car driver as a dangerous psychopath until proven otherwise.
Why do you assume that people who are willing to drive for 8 days with around 8 hours of sleep, supported by teams are not aware that there might be some risk involved with driving a bicycle?
Competitive road cyclists' posture is completely forwards, for aerodynamics, better climbing, etc. Using it may be a useful tool in your 20s / in competition but otherwise it is wise to use an upright position, which will take the least toll and will be fastest to recover from.
Some bike setup tweaks can make a (more) upright position easier - from higher handlebars, to moving the seat forwards, to even getting a slightly shorter bike frame (since in the case of mountain bikes, they tend to be longer for greater stability).
Finally, while riding you should be looking up, at the horizon practically, not at the cockpit.
One time I got talked into going to a club - something I don't normally do. It so happened that it was "goth night", so I figured I would spend the night headbanging.
After a few hours, when the club was almost closing up I noticed that something was off - my neck muscles felt weak. Next thing I know I'm sitting at the side of the stage with my head down, looking like a case of alcohol poisoning, and can't move.
I sat there for half an hour until I regained enough strength to at least somehow make to the exit.
Gradually it went away but I only fully recovered the next morning.
https://www.iron-neck.com/blogs/news/best-neck-exercises-for...
Most people assume the only goal of training is to improve performance in one's particular sport, but in reality, one-sided training creates imbalances that can lead to injury, and a central goal of any training program should be all-around strength and flexibility.
It's like putting a powerful engine in a stock Toyota Tercel. What will you accomplish? You'll blow out the drive train, the clutch, the transmission, etc., because those factory parts aren't designed to handle the power of an engine much more powerful than the factory installed engine.
Cycling basically only trains the biceps and to some extent, the back muscles. What you really want to do is train your entire body, all the major muscle groups (chest, back, abdomen, legs, shoulders and arms) at the same time, over the course of a workout. And don't forget your cardiovascular work! I'm proud of you guys wanting to do this. Three cheers! Falling in love with exercise, eating right, etc., is one of the greatest things you can do for yourself. And you WILL fall in love with it if you can just force yourself to stick with it a year or two and experience the amazing progress you'll make.
Not trying to call cycling a full body workout, but it definitely does more than just biceps and back. What about legs? Heart? Lungs?
I think a lot of cyclists are afraid to put on muscle anywhere other than their legs, for fear of gaining weight. But really those fears are unfounded, and even a small amount of weight training would help with both their speed and enjoyment of the sport.
He's not without controversy, however, having been accused of sexual assault by multiple woman, has strong right wing political opinions (not that I'm suggesting that's necessarily wrong, but it does bring him controversy), and has a weirdly supportive relationship with Deepak Chopra, an infamous pseudoscience charlatan.
Could bad posture behind a computer cause the same problem?
By the way, Michael Shermer is quite an interesting person:
Yes it could, but usually people will take a break at the computer before it affects them. I'm 38 and have been programming for 20+ years without issue, my posture is sort of leaning back in the chair, definitely not leaning forward with heard forward.
Shermer's Neck is a condition that impacts a very small percentage of cyclists, and only those who choose to participate in the most extreme of events like Race Across America or Paris-Brest-Paris.
Cycling feels like free energy, way more flowy, and far more engaging, like it's a videogame, in the sense that I'm constantly making micro-inputs for debris, cracks, choosing clean lines, scanning what's around me, etc.
Only dimension where cycling feels way more intense than walking and running are on the hill climbs, but I oddly like the pain that comes with it. Couldn't say the same for intense running efforts (of the half-marathon threshold to VO2 max variety).
Walking feels like it just takes forever. But in new cities, it's a nice way to get a feel of the various pockets and districts. And on hikes in national parks and such, you don't really have much of a choice.
CYCLING BABY, YEAH.
And even hill climbs can be made relatively easy with the right gear ratio. My endurance bike has a 33T chain ring in the front, and a 36T gear in the back - so less than one to one ratio. I can get over just about any climb in my area without much exertion. It’s definitely slow going, though!
Need to eat 3,000 kcal? Beef and vegetables would be more natural than a Big Mac. Need to go somewhere 3 km away? Waking or jogging would be more natural than cycling or using the car.
In all seriousness though, it’s good to keep in mind human history and what’s natural, but unless you’re walking around barefoot on dirt paths, fasting for days at a time, and drinking unfiltered water from mountain streams, it seems kinda silly to arbitrarily draw the line there. There are plenty of modern things that work really well for humans, that may not have been natural 10,000 years ago
It’s just one study. And GCN is not the best source for science news, and is certainly going to be biased in favor of cycling. But I think at the very least the risk of erectile dysfunction from cycling is vastly overstated in general.
Traffic accidents sure are bad but you can identify safe routes. For example I avoid arterials and opt for those 25mph residential roads that run parallel, and those are extremely safe. The number of cyclists that have died last year in my city of some 4 million people is also about a dozen people, and its not clear whether confounding factors were involved (e.g. alcohol or drugs or lack of helmet or nonddevensive/lack of awareness biking given the not so small homeless population that rides bikes in varying states of sobriety in my city).
As a cyclist I see car traffic as like a constant source of death, like a rushing river leading into a waterfall, or a big grizzly bear. It must be treated with care, but with sufficient knowledge it can be made to be nearly totally safe. When I see statistics like 10 deaths a year in a city of 4 million, of course I will assume that a lot of that has to do with the fact that most bike riders have zero education on using the road with a bike and there was probably some recklessness involved with where they were choosing to ride a bike, and that the cases e.g. of people getting killed while riding in a bike lane or on a residential street with a speed limit of 25 mph are so exceedingly rare in comparison that I may as well not worry about them personally ever happening to me, much like I ignore the low scale risk of death with just about anything one does in life.
i don't have much else to say other than that you're wrong and also in a morally compromised position. knowledge can't save you from the rushing river of 2 ton deathmobiles, traffic engineering (ie dutch cycling infrastructure) can.
An extreme case here: https://server6.intermedia.ge/pictures/original/503/503371.j...
But constantly having my neck tilted up to the 'stop' did give me an itchy and stiff neck, often lasting the day after the swim.
I hike now for exercise as I moved to a mountainous country, glad I don't have that issue anymore.
One idea I have is a Hololens-like setup, with a camera mounted to the front of the bike to allow the cyclist to ride in a "head down" position for long stretches, preventing neck fatigue and increasing aerodynamics.
A forward position is much faster, both in terms of aerodynamics and the muscle groups involved with the pedal stroke. It allows even a relatively unfit cyclist to ride 20mph quite easily, rather than 13-14mph.
This also means you can go further on a single ride. The purpose might be training, but you can't go very far on an upright bicycle—after 2 or 3 hours, there is quite a difference.
Sitting upright puts more pressure on the sitbones. In a forward position, you can distribute the weight among the saddle, hands, and pedals. Again, this allows for longer, more productive rides.
I don't think it wise to think you know what is best for others. Longer is better cardio and needed for endurance training. Less watts wasted in air resistance just means you are riding faster. "It never gets easier, you just get faster"
I think it makes sense to fight back against the common recommendations you get from bike communities who are obsessing about weight and efficiency. If you are seeking to get fit by riding a bike, get a heavy bike. You'll do more work and you'll get stronger.
So, this just kinda triggers me as arm-chair quarterbacking, it's really common and you just don't know a cyclists perspective until you've observed the conditions of shoulders at 2 feet away, and when you know statistics that intersections and turning traffic are more dangerous to cyclists than compared to riding further into the lane forcing traffic to move over to pass.
So, I believe that is just assuming way too much. For many, 'fun' is the primary reason and for many others it is simply 'transportation'.
> I think it makes sense to fight back against the common recommendations you get from bike communities who are obsessing about weight and efficiency.
That could be the case, though really depends on which community one is referring to. Not all of them obsess about weight and efficiency. At the same time, being upright vs leaned over is hardly obsessive (given that it is the single largest efficiency gain you can have). Hence, if you care at all about efficiency, you're not going to be bolt upright. For safety reasons, it can be important to match traffic speed, there all sorts of reasons to ride faster that are not just 'obsessing over weight and efficiency'.
They should look into recumbent bikes.