Comment by gravitronic | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gravitronic | Hacker News Reader

Without the sales to support such a large "industry" of lawyers and business people, and without the need for many of their services (marketing and distribution, at least), are major labels not irrelevant?

With dwindling sales they seem willing to further exploit their one resource, the artist. Artists on twitter are talking about getting monthly cheques for ~7 cents from Spotify. Guess who made that contract?

I feel like we're about to hit a new low for professional career musicians. Their existing structure is falling apart (and it should) but the replacement is not quite ready. Today's professional musicians have to tour constantly to be profitable enough to survive, not to mention constantly churning out new tracks to remain relevant.

It's a tough gig. Signing to a major label is not a great move financially (cue the albini essay), they're in dire straits and will exploit you for every dollar you can generate, leaving you with little but debt.

I hope that in the future, the fat will be trimmed from the industry (good riddance) but a sustainable model will be created where the artists and minimal management make healthy livings without being run ragged just because they devoted their lives to making music.

One of the conclusions one could draw from your comment is that the wrong kind of people (professionals) have been the ones involved in developing musicians' careers. ie, lawyers, corporate marketing-type people, etc.

As a professional musician I think this is correct.

The biggest challenge that I face is in my career (besides the creative challenges of creating compelling music) is this: there are very few smart, talented people who have an initiative to help me develop my career AND the skills to do so.

My current annual income is X, derived primarily from concerts.

If I had the right people helping me this could easily become 6X, and I would gladly pay my team of part-time helpers a substantial percentage of equity to make it happen (rather do more than less, bigger pie to split).

But chances are the people with the talent to make that happen would rather do other things that will:

- make more money - will be more fulfilling than, say, cold calling venues or other less-than-edifying things that, ultimately, make or break a career.

When I read about the idea Derek Sivers had to get people to specialize in 'Muck-Work' I got really excited.

If someone created an oDesk for musician's specialized helpers that were good at a myriad of very limited, but important tasks, they could make a pile of money.

It's easier said than done. I think Derek realized this and that's why we're still waiting for Muck Work to launch...

Hi Ivan, thanks for your response.

Incidentally I just ran into https://twitter.com/RentARep - while seemingly rap-oriented they seem to be entering the market that you are envisioning.

Does this Muck Work require talking to you/other musicians in person?

I'm wondering if this business opportunity requires a physical encounter or could be done remotely. I actually would love to support musicians and other artists/talented people by doing their Muck Work. One of the problems I've encountered informally is that there are major trust issues! My job requires them to trust me and building that trust is not easy, even in person, since there are so many sleazy MBA fraudsters out there.

Fraudsters specialize in getting people to trust them. Honest helpers, however, specialize in helping. I find that the fraudsters are accorded more trust than me, even though I don't have a scammy bone in my body.

I find it highly rewarding to help others focus on and develop their talents by moving the furniture out of their way. I actually just love seeing artists express themselves and so that motivates me to do their Muck Work. (great word for it by the way)

The way I understand it, 'Muck Work' was meant to be a go-to place for people specialized in all the things musicians would like to outsource. To my knowledge, it never launched (Hey Derek: am I wrong?)

Regarding trust issues, that is an excellent point. It is ironic that you would like to help, but can't for lack of trust.

The easiest way to overcome that is to make small promises, then keep them/over-deliver.

Most people who try to help musicians have good intentions, but are not actually effective. They make promises, then fail to deliver, leading to disappontment for all.

My two cents: a person who would like to help should just identify an area in which they have real experience, and focus on that, insted of 'dabbling'.

For example, I have professional photographers, sound engineers, designers who essentially donate their time, or work at a huge discount, as a way of supporting my work. I find that VERY helpful.

As a counter-example, I've had people offer to help cold-call potential clients, but these people have no experience cold-calling, so it has been a big waste of time.

oDesk has been infinitely more helpful in a matter of months than any of the 4-5 people in 1st world countries that I've had try to help over the years (which led, in turn, to me being extremely cautious about help).

> Today's professional musicians have to tour constantly to be profitable enough to survive, not to mention constantly churning out new tracks to remain relevant.

I think this is just the nature of the beast, so to speak. Due to the large number of musicians, the very, very low cost of recording a track, and the global, nearly free distribution channel of the Internet, the value of a pre-recorded piece of music is practically $0.

However, going to a show, seeing a real performance, feeling the music, etc etc, is still worth $10 a ticket to me, even for music that isn't particularly good. You can't copy/paste that experience on to someone else's iPod.

Your comment summarizes where we are today, but maybe there's other solutions in the future?

Right now we have basically the two mentioned modes of contact with the artist: listening to their released music and seeing them perform live. Already big concerts have been adding revenue streams with things like VIP tickets or a chance to meet the artist, but what about more streams in the online domain? David Lynch is a bit of a pioneer in this space, from what I gather his website has a paid-subscription model where you get access to a ton of his work from finished pieces to random things he does through the day. If some of my favorite artists had networks like this I would consider subscribing.

If you really want to change the game, first change the vocabulary and context and the game will change itself.

You mean: >> the cost of a pre-recorded piece of music is practically $0.

The value remains the same; The sum of the marginal benefit of hearing the music each time, which is likely greater than the $0.99 that people pay for a song on iTunes (otherwise they wouldn't pay it). If you aren't willing to pay for the song but is willing to copy it from someone's iPod if given the option then the value of the song is the opportunity cost of doing the actual copying.

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