Comment by maxklein | Hacker News Reader

Comment by maxklein | Hacker News Reader

I really fail to see how anyone can see racism in this. The current people trying to make it big in silicon valley now did not start the process now, they started 10 or 15 years ago when they started fiddling around with computers or learning to code or reading business books. And it's at that stage that the current audience was created, and not right now. The people applying and the selection is just a result of that process.

And clearly, many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now. The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them.

And in any case, there is this theory: if you pick any group of people at all, there are going to be a few people who are simply more able to do many things. Let's say these people are more talented and more intelligent. These people tend to work on what is currently 'intellectually trendy'. For example, a while back they would have been painters, another while back, they would have been writers, another while they would have been physicists, now they are technologists. These people search out a trendy intellectual effort and then spend their time developing their abilities there. This 'trend' is different for different groups, depending on the media that they are exposed to, and what the people around them are talking about.

Groups in America are pretty segregated, and there is a form of intellectual segregation betwen men and women. It leads to gender specific roles. It also leads to the effect observed above: Smart black guys did not start fiddling with computers 15 years ago, so they are not currently active in the tech industry.

And clearly, many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now. The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them.

You use words like "clearly" and "probably" but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions. Clearly, you expect your audience thinks exactly the way you do and will probably confirm your bias.

"You use words like 'clearly' and 'probably' but provide neither explanation nor evidence to back up your suppositions."

Maybe because it would take all of 12 seconds of Googling to confirm that this is probably (at least partially) correct? We all know what the statistics say and what they don't say, so asking other people to do your homework for you in place of actually contributing something is lame. I meant granted, the original comment was a bit simplistic, but the lack of statistics isn't the issue.

I read an artcile suggesting that people believe certain things about race and bias but that the evidence is not there to support their beliefs. I read an artcile that suggests that people construct explanations to fit their world view. I'm merely pointing out that off-hand comments like this exactly fit the behaviour described in the article: Constructing explanations to fit a pre-existing set of beliefs.

I have a great deal of personal intest in the subject of race and bias, and I assure you that in twelve seconds of Googling, I will find enough conflicting evidence and explanations to suggest that the causes for bias are complex.

If I looked at a mountain of conflicting evidence with a predetermined belief, I'm sure I could find validation for whatever I already believed. So, I don't doubt for a moment that if you already agree with these statements, twelve seconds with Google will confirm our suspicions, just as I am sure that someone who vehemently disagrees with these statements will also find confirmation of their disagreement with twelve seconds of Googling.

UPDATE: To be clear, I'm not saying that Max is wrong: I don't live in the US, much less in SV. How should I know what American women and minorities are thinking? But what I am saying is that statements like this in a forum like this suggest not only that the speaker has preconceived beliefs about this, but that he also expects evryone else to share those beliefs.

Can you provide us with the model of what you think is happening?

Because "I think that something bad is happening but I don't know what" does not lead to a constructive discussion at all.

To the contrary, I think it is constructive to question sweeping and inflammatory claims backed up by little more than adverbs.

Sorry, but while there is only one model of what's happening it would remain both questionable AND popular.

To make it move you have to provide a new one.

His explanation sounds believable and unless you supply a believable one or maybe one backed by data and other empirical evidence, we'll going to use his.

That's how arguing works in real life when the object is vast and non-deterministic (like, population).

The "clearly" comes out of logic. If you assume that my "result" statement is correct, then the reason would also have to be correct.

Do you think African American students, 15 years ago, were spending time studying how to use computers? I think it's rather likely because:

- I've never heard of this

- Such playing-with-computers is something that was confined to the somewhat richer and educated people in American society, which the african-americans were not, 15 years ago.

I doubt that my audience thinks the exact way I do, and I doubt I have any bias that needs to be confirmed.

Do you think African American students, 15 years ago, were spending time studying how to use computers? I've never heard of this

I was, as were all of the other black computer science students who graduated with me at MIT. Do we get to question your bias now?

I'm not talking of an individual, I'm speaking of a general trend. And by the way, "graduating from MIT" means nothing to me. I went to a university, you did too, the university you went to does not mean much (to me).

And by the way, "graduating from MIT" means nothing to me. I went to a university, you did too, the university you went to does not mean much (to me).

Good for you.

When you say you've "never heard of" black people learning how to use computers, it behooves me to refute you with the fact that not only are there are plenty of black people who know how to use computers, but there are plenty of black people graduating from the best computer science programs in the world.

Graduating from MIT don't mean you would be beneficial to starting a tech company

Graduating from MIT don't mean you would be beneficial to starting a tech company

OK, now you're grasping at straws.

First it was that there are no black hackers because black people didn't put in the work to learn how to use computers. Now you're claiming that black hackers from good schools may just not be the kind of hackers beneficial to starting a tech company.

When you're reduced to spouting really bad versions of No True Scotsman, you should probably move on. It's just embarrassing now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You misunderstand. I am not impressed by your school. I'd be impressed by your achievements

If you think this is about me, you're the one misunderstanding.

So do you disagree that African Americans are underrepresented in tech？

African Americans are underrepresented in tech, but far more underrepresented in accelerators and VC portfolios.

I learned how to code when I was 6. Anomalous, yes, but I'm questioning that one. ;)

>Such playing-with-computers is something that was confined to the somewhat richer and educated people in American society, which the african-americans were not, 15 years ago.

That explains the "many african-americans and many women were not doing the steps needed to be talented enough to be able to make it big now" part of your sentence. It does not explain the "the most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them" part of your sentence. Hence the request from raganwald and myself for a source to back this up.

I assume that people are influenced by the media they watch. African American media 15 years ago had no computer scientists featured

You don't need statistics to tell you that the programming community 10-15 years ago was overwhelming male and white/Asian. Some things are obvious by inspection. Do you seriously doubt this? Would it really change your mind about anything if the OP wasted 15 minutes trying to find a study proving it?

>The most likely reason they did not do that, is probably because it just did not occur to them.

Is your stated reason ("it just did not occur to them") more likely than "they didn't have the opportunity to take those steps because of (economics/insert reason)"? A quick Google search give this link: http://www.brookings.edu/articles/1998/spring_education_darl... which indicated that in the 1990's, minority students generally had access to fewer or lower-quality resources than white students.

I believe it did not occur to them. I doubt that asian students had much more resources 15 years ago.

Do you have any evidence either way?

edit: downvotes for asking for evidence? I provided some, I'd be happy to evaluate more.

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