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Comment by gadders | Hacker News Reader

I've been married coming up on 20 years, so I'm well out of the game. I do however see a lot memes, tiktok videos from women about "creepy men" daring to ask them out in real life.

I'm sure some men are creeps, but if you don't want people to speak to you in real life, then apps are your only option.

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Women only find unattractive men creepy. If a DiCaprio would approach them, there would be another story. And men (and women) can do a lot to enhance their attractiveness. Working out, eating healthy, make money, for example.

I'm sure there are complete weirdos out there, but I agree with what you say.

but i'm sure that applies to women as well. It is just that women have no pressure to approach.

on the topic of DiCaprio, this chart of his girlfriends was spread around recently https://old.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/azjti7/leo... and it's definitely interesting and weird at the same time. Judging just from this picture, it seems like he's not dating to find a life partner (which is what I imagine most want to do.. maybe just me?)

I think one of the InCel theories is that top 1% men are hooking up with (say) 50% of women (and not looking for a long term partner), preventing those women (and the rest of the men) being able to find a long term partner.

I may have garbled this, but I think it is the gist of their theory.

Alpha widowing is a thing. Expectations get anchored at a high water mark so that dating most other men is a disappointment and a severe knock to their own self worth.

Ideally people would be realistic but women especially are being encouraged to want more. I think this mismatch of expectations is very damaging to society. I know a lot of alpha widowed women who are now going through a major crisis in middle age and I expect the problem to get much worse.

Yes, I think it can particularly be an issue if women want to have children one day (not saying they all should).

To find a guy you want to settle down with (and for you both to generate the required level of mutual trust) can take multiple years with no guarantee the relationship will endure.

I wasn't aware of the term but I fully agree about the expectation anchor problem. Dating apps just make it much easier to get one's expectations anchored too high.

While I doubt the 1%/50% ratio the basic problem is very real.

People are looking for the best they can attain and dating apps distort the impression of what one can attain. Just because you managed to go on a date with a 9 doesn't mean you can actually land a 9. This means someone just looking for sex and who is near the top in desirability will end up with a lot of sex. Since it's mostly men who are looking for just sex this results in a lot of women who want someone like that handsome guy that got away--not realizing that they were being used.

I would say your post sums up the collective experience of my circle of friends(including female friends) and myself perfectly. It's a weird situation: The average woman between 20 and 40 gets approached relatively often (at least multiple times a year) and experiences a broad spectrum of guys hitting on her which necessitates strict selection. The average man between 20 and 40 may not even get approached at all, ever, and have to fight for attention, making it a numbers game where spray and pray might seem like one of the better strategies. And this is kind of a self-perpetuating system.

I would also argue that you can work on your attractiveness but this can also easily take a toll on you and while working out and eating healthy are rather accessible for most people, making a lot of money or changing further features of themselves might not be. I have multiple friends who suffer from androgenic alopecia in their 30s or who have facial features which deviate so far from the norm that the only way to actually "fix" them would be to have plastic surgery.

Sometimes I wonder if the smart move would be to actually move somewhere where the societal norms around this are different.

Not to sound callous, but as someone who's had plastic surgery in the past and is thinking about if I want anything else done, is it so bad to save up for or plan around?

If something really gives you grief or you feel bad about your appearance, I think considering what you can do about it is probably helpful. My surgeon seemed to have a lot of clients in for hair loss and that's a big quality of life improvement to not have to worry about, I would think?

I do not disagree with you at all. In fact I think it's a smart choice. What I would like to highlight though is that it's less accessible and I would argue more sensible as a topic than eating healthy or working out. I don't think it should be but I think it is.

I started going bald late 20's/early 30's and just started cutting my hair really short and then never gave it another thought. Being bald isn't unattractive - being self-conscious about being bald is.

Being bald works well if you have a big frame/size. Then you just look very masculine. Unfortunately short guys are more likely to go bald and it works less well on short men.

I'm 5ft 8 or so and stocky. I'm no giant.

I personally agree that it's not unattractive and being self-conscious about it can make it so. However seldomly people with a perfect hairline worry about that, and many balding people do so it's at least another thing to get the upper hand on. And it's also no suprise a lot of people fear it. Published data indicates that when women rate pictures of balding vs non-balding men, the former are rated worse and one could say the attitude one has would not have much of an impact on that. And it's the same with height, perceived fitness and wealth. What I am trying to say: It's simply not a level playing field and all these things add up.

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