Comment by sam0x17 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sam0x17 | Hacker News Reader

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What a horrible viewpoint to have. Unionization is one of the best things happening (albeit slowly) in these sorts of industries right now. How can you not be for it? Amazon working conditions are terrible and turnover is so bad that Amazon is rapidly running out of people who haven't already tried working at Amazon and decided it's horrible. If working conditions and pay improves, we will all reap the economic benefits -- more capital in the hands of consumers, probably less broken or mismatched packages because workers will have a more reasonable workload and more incentive to do a good job, better outcomes for the majority of the population, etc, etc,. Bear in mind more than one in 10 people works in some capacity for Amazon in the U.S.. That's a huge economic sector if their pay and working conditions improve.

Your argument that AliBaba can somehow come into the U.S. and not be subjected to the same economic and cultural effects mystifies me. If AliBaba came here they would experience unionization, and it would be a good thing. Also given the extent of Amazon's monopoly in the U.S., and anti-china AND anti-middle-east sentiment in the U.S. being as high as it is (AliBaba cannotes "arab" for a lot of americans), there is just no way AliBaba could ever enter this market successfully unless Amazon was broken up into multiple companies and AliBaba rebranded to something appropriate for the U.S. market. So yeah, your comment is really bizzare.

>"How can you not be for it?"

I'm wary because unions in the US start out strong by addressing very real grievances and putting the greedier aspects of management in-check. But it seems inevitable that they become entrenched, bloated, and protectionist to the point of hurting the company's ability to adapt to market pressure and disruptions from non-unionized competitors. I'm not anti-union per se, and I would rather see them structured the way they are in Europe, and particularly, those in Germany.

Unions/Governments/Companies/Families/HOA's/Schools/Restaurants/Colleges/etc.. are great at first.

Eventually they crumble under their own apathy, bureaucracy, mismanagement, entropy and waste and a more lean competitor takes their place.

Thankfully

Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy

How are unions structured in Europe?

There’s not much structurally different about unions in Europe, but they exist in very different legal circumstances. Unions in the US are micromanaged by the NLRB and many complex laws enacted during the cold war.

Unions aside, Germany requires by law that corporate boards have a minimum percentage of representation from bottom-level employees, meaning employees who are nobody’s boss. This law seems to have been invaluable to working conditions in Germany. The catch is that the American ruling class would simply never allow such a law to be passed. Germany has the law as a result of history. Remember the Soviets defeated the Nazis, “first they came for the communists” and so on.

this law is also in effect in a lot of other european countries.

Remember that after World War One and during the interbellum, most european countries had massive social unrest. Giving workers representation inside the company was usually meant as a way to appease to communist/socialist voters during those times.

Mind you, this all happened before world war 2 and the iron curtain.

I’m weary…

You’re tired?

I think you mean wary. Or leery. Not weary.

Interesting, I did not know this. Fixed.

It's quite simple. Either you believe the workers deserve representation or you don't. Business is the intersection of workers and corporations. You need both sitting at the bargaining table to get anything real done.

>Unionization is one of the best things happening

Some unionization works out well, especially when the union actually has the best interest of both the workers and company in mind. There are many times that self serving unions bleed workers through dues and protect non-productive workers to the benefit of no one, and in some cases, driving companies into bankruptcy.

I am pro-union and acknowledge that some unions will protect workers that don't actually contribute to the business, but I think we need a source on unions that drove companies into bankruptcy. That's a pretty extreme case that needs concrete examples.

>How can you not be for it?

Mostly too many stories from family of ridiculous interactions with unions (e.g. "you can't carry your own stuff to your booth. If you don't have us carry your briefcase, your truck's windows are all going to be smashed.")

Also, teacher's unions.

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