I'm really only wondering about whether or not other infectious diseases cause also cause long term issues but it just hasn't been detected before at the level of Covid. To put it more simply I'm wondering if every time we get sick, it decreases our overall vitality just a little bit. Maybe even catching the common cold is chopping a month or two off our lifespan and we never noticed before.
* Having said that, of course covid is comparable to the flu. You just did compare it by stating one is 10x the other. Things don't have to be equivalent or even the same order of magnitude to be comparable. I know we're getting into the weeds of what people typically mean when they say "comparable," so again, 100% my fault for not being more clear.
But I do wonder the same thing, COVID has obviously been studied enormously around the world. It also seems to impact relatively healthy people in vastly different ways unlike a cold. However, I do wonder if you took a group of people who have been hit with the flu, if you would observe similar long term impacts, albeit perhaps not to the same degree.
https://doi.org/10.1111/1751-7915.13889
There hasn't been much research on long-term sequelae from HCoV-OC43. I'll bet that if we studied it as closely as COVID-19 we would find similar effects.
I suppose the logic is that you wouldn’t actually weigh them against one another because the result is so obvious - compare here perhaps implicitly meaning to weigh both carefully.
One can quibble with the logic of the phrase, but GP used it correctly.
This is well-known to doctors. It's only the general public who think that COVID causing myocarditis is novel and strange.
(FWIW i understood your comment)
They do, just look at the prognosis section of influenza on Wikipedia [0] (I know, Wikipedia isn't the best source). I had a colleague that had a bad flu one year and then never properly recovered. The doctors say he now has "chronic fatigue syndrome". This was before COVID was a thing.
I'm not claiming that flu is as bad as covid, just that this stuff does happen without covid to unlucky people.
That's fallacious reasoning. Even assuming that every one of those deaths is from Covid, comparing a disease that has been circulating for 3 years with one that has been circulating for many hundreds of years is misleading.
Of course the virus with little population immunity is going to have more of an immediate effect. That does not imply that the virus has greater long-term impact, greater overall severity, or anything else. It says that nobody had this virus before, and everyone got it, quickly.
On top of all of that, the ~100k people that flu kills, in an average year, is biased toward the young. Covid mortality, on the other hand, is almost exclusively amongst the elderly and infirm.
The average flu is very heavily weighted towards deaths in the elderly and infirm. We even have a name for a bad flu year - it ‘clears the dead wood’.
Covid has been much more significantly impacting younger age groups - those in their 40-60s - compared to the elderly and infirm (comparing the flu death curves).
It's absolutely unquestionable that children are at higher risk from influenza than Covid, but it's also probably an exaggeration to say that Covid kills more middle-aged adults; there's a lot of debate on the issue, and papers like this one suggest significantly lower odds from Covid until age 65:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8375609/
Only when you restrict your view to the period of 2020-present do you start to see discussions of Covid leading to higher deaths relative to flu during the pandemic. Here's the UK ONS, doing exactly this:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthan...
But you can't go from this to claims about Covid mortality, in general. The flu largely disappeared during the last couple of years, so it's not terribly surprising that it killed fewer people during that same time period. (To be fair to the UK ONS, they aren't making that claim here, but people regularly misinterpret the data.)
Then there is the problem of deaths being attributed to covid any time the person who died has a positive covid test in the month prior to their death. It's easy to find numerous examples of people who died in car crashes or from suicide being reported as covid deaths, even still.
And interestingly, the mortality rate could even be inversely related to long term effects-- after all, if covid kills you then you don't have any long term effects (except being dead).
I never understood the reasoning behind this. I understand that pinpointing the cause of death is hard, especially with overcrowded hospitals, but I'm guessing that any doctor could circle the "high or low probability of covid causing the death" on the forms after the death of the patient. Covid+pneumonia, intubation, heart failure... sure, it's 99% it really was covid and not an unrelated undiscovered heart issue. Car crash... pretty sure it wasnt directly covids fault. The suicides would be a bit more touchy though.
That number is probably not accurate since there were numerous cases reported of people dying "with COVID" and not "from COVID". Also these numbers were heavily used by the media and authorities to push for widespread vaccination so expect bias.
But to humor you, OK what exactly has caused over a million people to mysteriously die in the last couple years if it wasn't COVID?
We know there is excess mortality. We know there are deaths from covid. We know there are deaths with Covid from events, gunshots and car accidents. We know from actuarial tables there are 3 sigma increases in deaths among some working age populations. We know here in the US, for the majority of the epidemic, the treatment for COVID only started if you were bad off enough to be in the hospital; unofficial off-label treatments have been widely demonized. We know there are alleged weird adverse events from both Covid, and the vaccines. We know some medical treatments for COVID early in the epidemic are now considered contrary to Standard of Care for COVID. We know many people are claiming new disabilities from Covid, and also, the vaccines. We know many people have lost their jobs for refusing vaccination, particularly in healthcare. We know drinking and substance abuse have gone up. We know extreme isolation which many people have experienced has gone through the roof. We know that many industries have been devastated by Covid. We know many people are depressed, and suicide rates have gone up. We know supply chains have been damaged, and some essential supplies may be transferring in greatly reduced numbers. We know that many families have had to do virtual schooling, and have much higher stress levels. We know that many businesses in the US are still treading water and having problems making payroll, with 20% of small businesses missing rent payments in the last 3 months. We know many people are becoming homeless, and some people are likewise going hungry, or starving. We know some states, NY & NJ in particular, ordered at-risk populations of eldery to sequester their vulnerable infected, with the vulnerable un-infected, and to continue to accept covid infected referrals from hospitals. We know that hospitals and potentially others, have received renumerations based on covid cases, diagnoses, and cause of death that may disproportionately effected ICD coding used by hospital administrators.
Given all of above, it is dangerously cavalier to point out one singular cause of deaths only.
Occam's razor says your wall of text is just rationalizing bullshit.
> We know some states, NY & NJ in particular, ordered at-risk populations of eldery to sequester their vulnerable infected, with the vulnerable un-infected, and to continue to accept covid infected referrals from hospitals.
This is 100% true [1].
> We know that hospitals and potentially others, have received renumerations based on covid cases, diagnoses, and cause of death that may disproportionately effected ICD coding used by hospital administrators.
This is also true. Every hospital in the US gets paid higher medicare rates for Covid patients. Even factcheck.org admits the truth of the statement, despite trying hard to "debunk" it [2].
[1] https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/26/cuomos-nursing-home-fias...
[2] https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-...
It's definitely a conspiracy to simultaneously claim that "hospitals" were deliberately misdiagnosing non-covid deaths as covid deaths while doing high mental gymnastics to rationalize while excess deaths exceed covid deaths and the excess comes exactly during the infection waves.
misdiagnosing sounds like your words not mine. Stay on topic. The topic is billing and coding.
Hospital administrators are going to pursue whatever is their best billing and coding option. That is logical.
Why would they submit for a finger injury that pays $500 when they can get a covid bump-up for $2000?
>Why would they submit for a finger injury that pays $500 when they can get a covid bump-up for $2000?
Because if this was routinely done, there will be some sort of proof. Where is the proof? Is there a third conspiracy to suppress it?
I am on topic. The topic is the conspiracy nutting around covid which you epitomize.
In the case of an unknown pathogen potential first treatments may prove to be wrong. Likewise, vaccines flawed. And for this there is a great history of flawed vaccines, such as the Polio Vaccine Live Virus debacle [1] the Simian contamination of Polio vaccines [2], or perhaps the Swine flu [3]. How much more so with a novel therapeutic technology that is not well understood, or which there appears to be troubling side effects? A vaccine mandate can make it even worse [4]
Much of the destructive influences Covid has had was not because of the virus exclusively, but because of the economic effects from mandated lockdowns [5], and potentially, contributions from mandated vaccines [6]
Whether you agree with Covid lockdown economic destruction or not, people are writing about it [7] from many different perspectives [8].
I provide much evidence. Let's hope you can respond with more than an ignoble response lacking any historical merit.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/
[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9450713/
[3] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/long-shadow-1976-s...
[4] https://www.acsh.org/news/2022/02/08/trouble-vaccine-mandate...
[5] https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/how-much-exactly-have-co...
[6] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/healthcare/hospita...
[7] https://fee.org/articles/study-lockdowns-had-largest-impact-...
[8] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/an-economist-explains...
Your "evidence" (to the extent it is evidence at all) is cherrypicked, for lack of a better world, sh*t.
Each claim I wrote is well supported by evidence.
You just dismissed something out of hand. Sorry, no blanket wave-away is going to cut the mustard here. And, there is no need for profanity.
Strangely, the original submission is about "Long-term cardiac pathology in individuals with mild initial Covid-19 illness (nature.com)" which goes right along with the points I have made.