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Comment by traceroute66 | Hacker News Reader

> They don't actually care about user privacy, but rather want exclusive rights to all of your data so that they can sell it for a markup.

Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble.

Look at, for example, their recent pro-privacy improvements to the App Store where developers are now forced to state in black and white what data their Apps collect.

Look at, for example, how pissed off Facebook were with recent privacy improvements in iOS. If Zuck is pissed off about a privacy improvement, then it must be a good thing !

If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago.

Fact is that Apple has many moats. One of their biggest moats is their stance on the privacy of their user's data. They know that if they backtrack on that, many people (including myself) would vote with their feet.

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> If Apple didn't give a shit about user privacy and wanted to sell all your data, they would have done so a long time ago.

They already do "sell", in a very similar way as Google and Facebook does - look at their app store ads for example. Only real difference between Google/FB and Apple is that they process data on device, not on their servers. Sure, it's a huge technical difference, but not that much in terms of business and end users.

Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business - you want to sell access to customers as a subscription to get big bucks. They have all the initiative to protect data they gather on their servers. Same as Apple has to do that on devices.

There're details to it, but just moving where you process user data isn't that much of a difference to end users - you're still a corporation selling other people ability to show me ads for cribs, when you discover that I'm expecting a baby.

To be clear, it's totally possible for Apple's closed ecosystem to be objectively better for consumer privacy and also a kind of "ad reach" silo for which access is sold at a premium.

And honestly, I'll take it. I have always been OK looking at ads if it funds the tools I use and the media I consume. I have always been OK with some amount of demographic and history-based ad targeting. I have no moral objection to some company gatekeeping advertiser access to my eyeballs and selling that access at a premium, especially if I'm already going to see ads everywhere anyway unless I go off-grid. I have no moral objection to using my demographics and general interests to show me ads for hiking boots instead of kung fu lessons.

I am not OK with companies storing, collecting, selling, etc. my data without my knowledge, consent, or legitimate ability to opt out. If the data doesn't leave my phone and all of the "targeting" happens on my own device, I can think of much worse compromise outcomes.

> Google and Facebook don't sell your data directly, as it's bad business

You may want to check on this belief more thoroughly, at least with Meta/Facebook as a start.

Can you point me to their checkout page?

I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.

> I would never have this kind of confidence in a corporation.

Meanwhile back on Planet Earth .....

Going by your argument you should not own any electronic device.

Because you should not be trusting Intel/AMD to make your CPU because they might have put spyware in it ....

Because you should not trust your keyboard manufacturer because they might have embedded a keylogger in it....

Because you should not trust your choice of OS because you haven't personally reviewed 100% of the source code and all subsequent patches for spyware ...

In the end, its about balancing risk vs reward. And frankly, especially in terms of privacy, Apple are far more trustworthy than the vast majority of other options out there.

I don't think "this is a problem for everyone" really precludes both informing people about the problem and hoping there is a solution to the problem. Just because Apple it "better", doesn't make it "good".

I personally feel some sort of regulatory framework around data collection and sales is not too much to ask.

My question is why is it always in discussions about Apple that people come out of the woodworks "worried about their privacy stance changing" and how we need regulatory stuff in place in the event Apple STARTS to be like Google, but nobody is ever in the Android stuff talking about how absolutely terrible Google is on this front?

Because everyone knows this about Google already. With Apple there seems to be some associated belief that it's better, when there's nothing really special about Apple. It's a publicly traded company and just because no one let the cow out of the barn yet, doesn't mean it couldn't in the future. Props to Apple for not doing a Google yet, but like someone said, I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value.

> I would never trust a corporation to put me above shareholder value.

Normally I'd agree with you, but I think Steve Jobs has a long history of not giving a shit about what shareholders say because he was more concerned with delivering the perfect product to customers, so I'd like to think that Tim Cook has also carried this torch too.

Yes they are a for-profit company, I still get that... But everyone has been shouting "Just wait, Apple will become just like Google once they realize how juicy that data is to their bottom line!!" for literally decades, yet... Nothing.

> so I'd like to think that Tim Cook has also carried this torch too.

You'd like to think that. I would too. But even if it's true, Tim Cook will not be there forever either. Publicly traded companies are owned by shareholders who can and will do what they want. The last half century of business is littered with the corpses of once vaunted corporate bodies stripped by investors.

They are nothing like Google and have proven that over time. But they don't need to be because people trust them.

Many moons ago I worked for a large online gambling provider. They worked tirelessly to make their company trustworthy, make their games entertaining, and build relationships with their high rollers. Internally, they had strategies to squeeze as much money from every user as possible without causing distress. It was quite eye opening and I can't help but draw parallels between them and Apple.

Jobs went over and beyond to dictate to customers what HE thought they needed, not what they truly needed.

All those counterexamples are open platforms which get tinkered with to no end. Meanwhile, it's the apple platforms that get more and more restrictions per year.

The fact that others might misbehave too does not invalidate OP's claim, in that no one should blindly trust a corporation. And let me add, an US corporation even more.

> Anyone who seriously thinks Apple are going to turn into another Google or Facebook needs to give their head a wobble.

To me, anyone stretching over to apologize for Apple needs to give their head a wobble. They are just going for the profit, selling you the lie of privacy. They want to scan your photos, remember. They already gave the FBI the tools they need to unlock phones, and they are of course part of PRISM.

What good is privacy if a single corporation has your health data, finance information, contact lists, shopping habits, address, friends and family, movies, music etc etc etc and then want so sell ad space targeted at you?

It's hardly any different than what Google or Facebook do except it's even more encompassing.

Where would people move to? I think there's a fair bit of room for Apple to get worse on privacy while still being preferable to Android/Windows. "At least they don't sell my data as much as ____".

Look at how they constantly go out of their way to engineer a solution that results in better privacy. Like analyzing your photo library using AI for object and face recognition. Any normal company (read: Google) would just run all that AI in their datacenter. Apple goes the extra mile, to actually run all that analysis on-device, while it's charging. I assure you there's no other reason to go through that effort other than privacy.

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