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Comment by jpe90 | Hacker News Reader

When you lose traction in your car from rain or snow, your instinct is probably to countersteer, but you should instead steer into the turn and countersteer when you regain control.

I can't remember if they actually taught that in driving school, but my dad had me deliberately lose traction repeatedly in a parking lot in the snow to get the hang of it. It saved my life a few times because I was a reckless idiot as a teenager.

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The proper response depends on the type of traction loss. What you describe is the appropriate response for understeering, but will amplify oversteering. Although to be fair, considering how common front wheel drive is these days, understeering is what us most likely to occur, and the proper response of following the failure is less intuitive than counter steering.

On a "proper" 4x4 sliding, increasing throttle will often straighten the path of the vehicle irrespective of current steering input - a fun quirk of locking differentials.

> increasing throttle will often straighten the path of the vehicle irrespective of current steering input

"when in doubt, gas it out"

"Full throttle will either solve the problem or end the suspense."

Even understeering, to recover grip you need to reduce the load (slip angle) on the front tyres- by straightening the wheel a bit. Not turning the wheel even further. So the same general principle applies, but it's less urgent when understeering as it's a kind of 'stable' situation.

Explanations help somewhat, but there needs to be some intuition for these principles to be applied effectively. I highly recommend going to a few auto cross events truly get it. Learning what it's like when "steering gets light" and how "turning into the skid" recovers it is really something you need to learn by feel.

>On a "proper" 4x4 sliding, increasing throttle will often straighten the path of the vehicle irrespective of current steering input - a fun quirk of locking differentials.

Just remember when you're not driving a four-wheel drive car if you learn to rely on this method.

The article was about bicycles and motorcycles, not opposite lock countersteering in a car.

I don't know what exactly you mean by "losing traction" (understeer or oversteer) but your advise does not sound correct to me.

But when you get into an oversteer situation in a car, the aligning moment acting on the tyre contact patch will automatically counter steer the front wheels to the outside corner (assuming the fronts still have grip).

The correct response to oversteer is opposite lock (counter steer) to the outside (not to the inside!) and rapid recovery (center the steering wheel) when the car starts to correct itself. In a front wheel drive car, some throttle can help to correct the oversteer faster but it can also induce a really bad tank slapper pendulum and you shouldn't do this in public roads. In a rear wheel drive, if the reason for the oversteer is too much throttle (power slide), easing off the throttle will correct it. But getting off the throttle quickly (esp if you're not power sliding) can also induce lift-off oversteer and make the oversteer worse.

In an understeer condition, just easing gently off the steering and the throttle will usually correct the situation but doing it too quickly can induce a tank slapper oversteer (from lift off oversteer), which you need to correct by counter steering. It sounds like this is the scenario you're describing, but you should definitely not apply more steering input in this situation.

In a road car you will almost never get to an oversteer without deliberately inducing by power sliding, hand brake, scandi flick or other rally driving moves (or accidentally in the case of a bad recovery from an understeer). Road cars' vehicle dynamics are set up to be very understeering through mass distribution and suspension set up.

My driver's education had two full days of skidpad training in slippery conditions. Opposite lock was the response that they taught for oversteer (which the instructor induced by pulling the hand brake in a turn). I also used to do a lot of parking lot snow drifting back when cars didn't have nanny electronics to prevent it. On top of that I have done lots and lots of simulator racing, both track and rally.

What you describe is what we were taught in drivers' ed as "steer into the direction of the skid". If your back end is whipping out (oversteer) then turn to the outside (the direction the wheels are skidding). If your front end is lagging into a turn (understeer) turn again toward the outside, which is the direction the wheels are skidding and will straighten them out to regain traction.

Maybe that's what OP meant by "into the turn" (although as you point out, that is actually toward the outside of the turn).

> When you lose traction in your car from rain or snow, your instinct is probably > to countersteer, but you should instead steer into the turn and countersteer > when you regain control.

I'm not entirely sure I understand. Perhaps some context is missing?

One key question is: when was this and in what car?

Most modern cars have various forms of stability control systems that try to execute the driver's intent. So for instance my daily driver is vastly different from my 1980s plaything that doesn't have any driver's aids. On slippery surfaces they require completely different approaches to driving when you are on, or over, the grip limit.

If you are trying to work with the stability control system, yes, you probably need to communicate your intent to the car and let it take care of things. But I'm not sure "don't countersteer" is necessarily good general advice because it really, really depends on why/how you lost traction and how the car will react. The only way you can know that is to take it onto a slippery track (or a large open space) and try it out.

Also, stability control systems can (and do) fail. They can shut down due to sensor errors or, if you buy a sports car, there may be an option for shutting them off partially or completely.

We don't get enough snow here, particularly in the south of England, for me to to be a particular expert in driving in the snow but I don't think turning into the turn makes any more sense. The main aim is to try to get the wheels back in the state where they are experiencing rolling friction rather than sliding friction. Usually by opening the steering.

I believe you're saying the same thing.

Your car understeering or oversteering is not countersteering.

Steering inputs to correct for understeer and oversteer are not countersteering.

Countersteering is specific to two-wheeled vehicles. Please read links before commenting...

Did you see where the link says:

>For the technique with a similar name used in automobiles, see Countersteering (Automobile).

The sentence that makes it completely clear that the article isn't about what is often called "countersteering" in automobiles?

The sentence that implies it's not limited to two wheeled vehicles

Although you're right, and we're talking about different things in the article, it's still called countersteering when you correct an oversteering car.

I didn’t see that in us driving ed but it’s a mandatory (and practical) part of the Swedish one

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