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Comment by azinman2 | Hacker News Reader

It’s always a mixed bag, but with the increase in work-from-home culture will come with a number of down sides for society - loneliness, a significant drop in weak bonds which significantly shrinks one’s social networks, local economic shrinkage as support businesses close (janitors, lunch spots, suppliers, etc), and a loss of general sense of belonging or even loyalty to your employer. Of course there are many obvious upsides which I’m sure HN readers will quickly defend and say they’d never be anything but remote again. That’s great when you have a choice, but when you’re a call center worker you have a low likelihood of having so much choice and autonomy over your not-quite-white-collar life. As far as a call worker goes, the inability to easily commiserate with coworkers on shitty calls, even between calls, I’m certain will lead to higher attrition and lower happiness. Humans need social support.

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Someone in my extended family used to do remote tech support/call center type stuff for Apple around 10 years ago, before WFH was popular. WFH was a huge draw for her because it allowed her to stay in a small rural town (75 min from a medium sized city, 30m from a small city) with her extended family, and easily balance her job around caring for her household.

I agree with your sentiment in general, that there are benefits to in-person work that we lose with WFH. But at least for her, WFH represented a no-compromise way of working. Her other options were don't work, work a local job that would likely pay at or barely above minimum wage, have a long commute to the medium sized city, or move away from her very close-knit family. Social support from coworkers was not a consideration compared to these things.

Culturally I think the idea of having a loose social network from your job is actually a pretty recent thing for most of society. Of course there have been professional organizations for millenia, but until the industrial/agricultural revolutions work for most people was done within the family. People can adjust back to spending more time with their family and local community, and less with extra-familiar coworkers. Long term, I don't think people will become more lonely from WFH - a lot of the loneliness issues were likely due to the abrupt transition to WFH due to COVID coupled with COVID-related social restrictions.

The ability for remote people to either work at all or get something higher paid I counted as obvious benefits in my original comment.

The concept of a company maybe relatively recent in humanity, but that doesn’t mean the social bonds with it are something worth throwing away, and given modern society is organized around it, with it will come a lot of loneliness. We don’t have a culture in the US that values community for the most part, with exceptions obviously. Hell, one of two parties does nothing but call half of the US the biggest threat and enemy to the country. This isn’t an environment to grow ties in.

> Hell, one of two parties does nothing but call half of the US the biggest threat and enemy to the country. This isn’t an environment to grow ties in.

I honestly couldn’t tell which party you were referring to. Which likely speaks to the extreme nature of the current divide.

Fortunately most local community groups are not tightly aligned with political groups - however there are obvious exceptions to this along with regional biases.

> Long term, I don't think people will become more lonely from WFH - a lot of the loneliness issues were likely due to the abrupt transition to WFH due to COVID coupled with COVID-related social restrictions.

Agreed. It's not just COVID—the other reason for the loneliness is because so many people have adopted a historically unprecedented way of living. We've severed ties with our families and with the people we live near in favor of forming our critical relationships around our careers.

I hope we'll see over the coming years a return to an older, family- and neighborhood-centric way of life. This would require restoring or reinventing institutions that are currently dying or dead, but the result would be healthier than tying our social lives to corporations.

To uphold in-person work for these weak social bonds would be myopic. We should have more robust forms of community outside of work. That isn't something that a workplace can ever reliably provide at scale, given the incentives of workers to maximize income and not connection.

Instead we'll get a new alter to worship at together one that makes us all poorer.

Can you elaborate? Are you saying we should worship at the alter of in person work? That it makes us richer than those who don't have to commute or suffer open office plans?

> given the incentives of workers to maximize income and not connection.

I don’t understand this point.

s/workers/employers

But also your fellow employees would not be wrong to leave their job (and hence you) if a better opportunity presented itself, and I don't think they should be disparaged for making that choice. Such is the peril of friendship via work.

Agreed. I happily use my old commute time to socialize with people I want to hang out with instead of the people I’m forced to be with through happenstance at work.

> Humans need social support.

I'll readily admit, that I have very little knowledge about the possible realities of call center workers. Do they usually include social interaction at the workplace or is the whole setup more so geared towards oversight? Because (as always) saving on the commute at the very least frees up some time to do with whatever works for you, although it might take some additional motivation to do something positive with.

> Of course there are many obvious upsides which I’m sure HN readers will quickly defend

No need to be defensive. We can try to be better, one non-defensive comment at a time.

"They're sharing a drink they call Loneliness, but it's better than drinkin' alone" - Billy Joel

Even if you don't talk every hour, you do have conversation. You are reminded that other people understand you, and they live your life. Conversations can happen spontaneously in a way they never will on zoom or slack.

A fully remote workplace is a lonely, sad place. I know.

> A fully remote workplace is a lonely, sad place. I know.

I know that it doesn't have to be true, depending on the person and where they are at. Anyway, I hope you are good where you are right now or, if not, will be soon.

Not for everyone. These conversations need to distinguish between different living arrangements. My fully remote workplace is awesome! When I need a break I play with my 3-year-old son. I eat lunch with my wife. I have no commute, so I can be with my family right at 5 every day and have a good few hours before bedtime.

For someone who lives alone, I can see remote being lonely. For someone without a place set aside for work, I can see it being hard to focus. But for me and my family, it's perfect. I won't be going back to an office at least until the kids are moved out.

> A fully remote workplace is a lonely, sad place. I know.

I disagree vehemently - looks like you're simply trying to pass off your own experience as fact for the rest of people, which isn't appreciated. I know companies that have been fully remote since day 1 and every employee has thrived, both in terms of productivity but overall morale and happiness.

Of course I am. Just like the majority of HN here passes off their experience with WFH, with their families and their huge houses and their established careers, as perfect with no downsides - how dare anyone think an office is useful for socialization, career development, collaboration.

While I am hard pressed to remember any instance where somebody got dared to think that, it's certainly a topic that is handled pretty lopsided on HN.

Having worked at one, the other call center workers are an important outlet of venting and source of camaraderie, because at the end of the day they too have been screamed at by some unpleasant person over the phone refusing to give you information yet expecting you to help them.

I wonder what that looks like in a WFH scenario.

maybe they could break them into teams and give them chat rooms to vent and discuss call topics?

One nice thing about venting in person: it's less likely to be permanently recorded somewhere. I've definitely held back online.

I mean do you seriously believe office life is some immutable law of nature and without it humanity will stop being social?

You have heard of neighbors, yes? Just had “block party” with my wfh neighbors.

I learned a couple are architects, one is in biology science, etc etc.

Far more diverse conversation than parroting IT jargon all week.

with respect, are you a member of the "support" class?

because your blindspots show:

-single caregivers can actually work from home. -low income workers that cant afford a car (let alone the soon to be mandatory expensive EVs) can actually work and not depend on broken cars, or crime-ridden public transport. - savings on fuel, insurance, and accident rates - the ability to keep employemnt and not need to change jobs due to a toxic workplace culture.

so no, depression et al are not problems of the "support" class. They have real problems (money, child rearing) making ends meet, and relationships/communities are one of the things they have lots of, particularly in immigrant communities.

So telecommute is a godsend for the vast majority of people. The more call centers close. The better. There will be plenty of spaces leftover for people to work together if they so choose.

These for me were lumped in the “obvious upsides”.

Definitely agree that the change will come with some immediate social drawbacks.

I wonder if, after 10 or 50 years, you'll start to see different social structures materialize to fill the void left by losing the second place of the office.

120 years ago, people still went to their 'worksite' every day. For some it was in a city, but for a huge number maybe it was on your own farm (thinking of the us). People coped. Isolation was a problem then too.

> People coped. Isolation was a problem then too.

120 years ago family and neighbors would just show up. Communities weren’t compromised of strangers who only slept there. Maybe we’ll adapt by getting to know our neighbors and being less exclusionary about our homes as time goes on.

I hope Meetup is replaced or fixes their problems. When moving cities or just traveling anywhere for a significant time it was an invaluable tool for meeting people with any kind of similar interest. But COVID crushed it, I don't know the financial particulars, but host I've talked to found it became particularly hard to continue groups that didn't have obvious financial backing (tech meetups that company's pay for to scout workers) or extremely passionate members willing to bear the cost.

I got lucky my previous city had extremely passionate members for my favorite group, but my new city is smaller and I think the fees have either killed the old group or are preventing a new group from forming

I can't speak to Meetup specifically but my sense is that a lot of activities that were plowing along mostly on momentum pre-COVID had to go on hiatus and with the break in continuity many will never return (although presumably new ones may take their place).

I'm involved with a big greater than century-old outdoor club and even we are more or less just getting back into the swing of things.

On the flipside, starting a family when both parents are WFH is a fucking cheat code. 20 years from now, minority groups will be complaining about how white folks are lightyears ahead of them because they had WFH parents and they won't be wrong.

That probably correlates/causates to class much more than skin colour, and so minorities complaining that middle-class people are ahead of them wouldn’t be anything new.

It could also create better proximity bonds with neighbors, increasing the cohesion in the local social fabric. Personally I know my neighbors better since the pandemic, and we are helping eachothers more now.

If you are lonely because you aren't going into an office every day, you have issues in your life.

> significant drop in weak bonds which significantly shrinks one’s social networks

The "social network" is overrated, one good friend that can take care of your dog and house while you are away on holiday is worth more than 1000 "connections".

> local economic shrinkage as support businesses close (janitors, lunch spots, suppliers, etc),

On the other hand it boosts economy elsewhere.

> a loss of general sense of belonging

You need to think hard what happens when you leave or they fire you, are you going to lose your sense of belonging? is your life just your work.

> loyalty to your employer

Be loyal to your spouse, not your employer, if you find a better place to work for, go for it, your employer will do the same with you within a millisecond.

> Humans need social support.

Yes, they do, but if your main supply is work colleagues, you are screwed.

> That’s great when you have a choice, but when you’re a call center worker you have a low likelihood of having so much choice and autonomy over your not-quite-white-collar life. As far as a call worker goes, the inability to easily commiserate with coworkers on shitty calls, even between calls, I’m certain will lead to higher attrition and lower happiness. Humans need social support.

I'm in no position to have an opinion, but our development team constantly depends upon call center guys to pass the request related to bugs, and last week they had a meeting with the senior leaders to push for work from home.

In the city I live having a shitty job is highly correlated with spending 3h-5h in public transport. WFH would be a blessing for those folks.

I generally don't care about WFH, but I have enough money to live close to our office.

Preach, friend.

All the people saying remote is great aren't thinking about job mobility for new workers in a field, the cost of having to share your home with your job, having to have a larger home, not separating work and home life, etc. I am repeating myself a little bit.

We are in a transition period where we see more of the positives of WFH. Give it a decade and the crippling social and job mobility issues for younger workers will be apparent.

> a loss of general sense of belonging or even loyalty to your employer.

no call center employees should be missing this.

For me, the solution to work-from-home loneliness (or even loneliness in general), would be having more local work spaces where you can meet other work-from-home peers from your local town.

Face-to-face interactions and sense of belonging are as important as sleep, exercise and nutrition.

But if it’s a random collection of people then you don’t really have a sense of belonging, unless there’s fixed people over the long term. Which is unlikely in a random work space. Certainly you don’t have a sense of shared work experience, or even people you can usefully talk trash about your bosses.

You don't have time between calls. Your breaks are scattered to provide coverage.

Better to get social support fun a partner at home?

>… a loss of general sense of belonging or even loyalty to your employer.

I don’t think you have to worry about that one being lost anymore

This also shifts the cost of the office to the employee.

Only marginally, if one cannot afford to heat/cool their home 40 more hours a week then it's unlikely they can afford 5-hours a week commuting. And folks with family at home aren't saving anything compared to in office jobs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-26/remote-wo...

It always happens at the margins. Sure, a call center worker might not be eyeing that second home in the mountains, but maybe they and their partner got a two-bedroom apartment instead of a one-bedroom.

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