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Comment by mikewarot | Hacker News Reader

It is WWII era technology. Something capable of making existing holes slightly larger, and far more precise in their placement and size.

You can find them used on Ebay for $5000 or so.

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https://www.justice.gov/usao-ct/pr/european-nationals-and-en... specifically mentions a high-resolution jig.

I wouldn't be surprised if in some cases just the tooling bits are around $5000, leaving aside the whole machine. For high-resolution machining, e.g. for lens fabrication, there's a whole science to drill bits, where special processes allow for achieving up to sub-nanometer surface roughness in parts. If they're making holes in hard metals they might be using titanium, diamond, or carbide drill bits that have crazy physical properties and cost a pretty penny.

In some sense CNC machining is also a WWII era technology, but CNC machines from that era couldn't touch what modern-day machines can do and the repeatable precision with which they can do them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY

While on the subject, this really is a fascinating field and it rules the world more than people might think. Consider that TSMC's core machines are made by ASML. Among the most important and specialized-IP parts in ASML machines are the huge lens which are made by Zeiss. Zeiss makes the lens with some next level machining equipment from companies around Heidelberg and Karlsruhe area. High-resolution machining isn't super known to the general public but it is so fascinating once you get to see the things they can pull off.

Yep. CNC machines of sufficient accuracy/precision are considered export-controlled munitions because they can be used to manufacture nuclear weapons components or nuclear fuel processing equipment, such as gas centrifuges).

Their sale/ownership are registered with the government. Some of them have GPS chipsets or are otherwise set up to detect when they're being moved, and stop functioning to some degree until they're recommissioned by the manufacturer - though this is also abused by manufacturers to force a company to have to pay to re-commission a machine if it is re-sold, even if it doesn't qualify under munitions rules.

Other things that are sometimes export-restricted include components that could be used in missiles like accelerometers, inertial navigation units and GPS chipsets if they're the sort that have sufficient accuracy or lack speed/acceleration/altitude lockouts.

> stop functioning to some degree until they're recommissioned by the manufacturer - though this is also abused by manufacturers to force a company to have to pay to re-commission a machine if it is re-sold

I imagine that moving a machine with a resolution in the realm of nanometers might affect it's performance if not done perfectly or jostled too much in transport (they have special postuments built for them in the place they will sit and are calibrated once settled in place). If I was a new owner of such a machine, I would order manufacturer checkout anyway.

I worked for a company that made nanometer precise stages and robotic hardware for the semiconductor, microscopy and metrology industries. We made stuff that was so precise that we had to pause our testing twice a day when the train would go by 1/4 of a mile away because we'd see the vibration in our tests.

The owner got a "special" deal from our machine tool supplier for a "open box" milling machine. It was normally a 500k 5 axis large volume milling machine with extremely high precision, at least that's what we were told.

After buying it, installing it, andd trying to use our laser interferometer on it we discovered it was not even close to its stated accuracy, and in fact wasn't even as accurate as a basic mill. It couldn't make parts that were worth a damn.

After a bunch of back and forth, it turns out that this specific mill was a trade show demo unit, it had been taken around the country and and setup in conference centers to show. Somewhere along the way it was also crashed (when you accidentally run an axis, or several, into things your not supposed to). They neglected to tell us any of this before we bought it.

The founder/owner of that company was a real piece of work - so I suspect this has more to do with karma than anything.

Dan Gelbart once demoed his workshop and mentioned some Moore jig grinder, where after calibration, loaders had to use aluminized insulating overalls like in metal foundries, because their radiated body heat would affect machine precision.

Wow, that's incredible!

> Yep. CNC machines of sufficient accuracy/precision are considered export-controlled munitions because they can be used to manufacture nuclear weapons components or nuclear fuel processing equipment, such as gas centrifuges).

Or things like submarine propellers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba%E2%80%93Kongsberg_scan...

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/russia/toshiba.h...

Or things like submarine propellers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiba%E2%80%93Kongsberg_scan...

https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/russia/toshiba.h...

Flir cameras too, their chips, lenses, etc.

The first NC machines were punch card driven and used to make stuff like propellers and rotors for turbines after WWII. The National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh has a Ferranti mill [1] on display that produced radar wave guides in the 50's along with an example of its output [2]. It must have been like alien tech at the time, but still not CNC and extremely rudimentary compared to the machining center in that video. Computer NC was born in the late 1950's.

1: https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/collection-sea...

2: https://www.nms.ac.uk/explore-our-collections/collection-sea...

Nukes are also WWII era technology, yet you would face some very critical questions if you tried to build one in your back yard. So are rocket engines and jet engines for that matter.

This type of jig grinder is absolutely not comparable to the things you can find on Ebay, let alone for 5k.

Also, if they were model rocketry or ham radio enthusiasts who took things way, way, way too far they're still in trouble for all the oil smuggling and money laundering they did.

I'm assuming we're talking about a precision CNC machine tool and not a hunk of WWII-era cast iron with thou scales.

These machines were perfected in the '60s and '70s. They are not only exceptional for their ability to make a hole perfectly located and perfectly sized, but also for making it perfectly round.

Their ways being perfectly straight and perpendicular, and metallurgically stable, they are often bought just as a platform for converting into special tooling (for making air bearings, diffraction gratings, metrology and semiconductor equipment, and so on).

No, no, it clearly must be a WWII relic. That’s clearly why they would arrest these people. The guy on HN that has private knowledge about the indictment said you could find the same ones on ebay for $5k.

So, two things. First, if you find a modern high-precision multiaxis CnC on Ebay for $5K, snap it up, you saved six $digits.

Second, dual-use tech is not about cost or sophistication. Did you know that Casio F91W watches get special attention from LEOs in many places? That isn't because a 1980s watch is super advanced. It is because they're popular bomb triggers.

And a bonus thing. When I see something happen in the world that seems absurd, there are two alternatives. Maybe it really is absurd; stupid things happen. But the other possibility is maybe I am ignorant of important details.

I personally learn a lot by entertaining the second option, even if it turns out the first was the case.

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