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Comment by stared | Hacker News Reader

There are also claims, which are not only wrong, but in a dangerous way:

> They lack empathy and are usually appalling teachers

No, autism is not related whatsoever to the lack of empathy! It may be associated with the lack of communication which can be perceived as the lack of empathy - but these are two different things.

The remark about "appalling teachers" is also extraneous. Some are. Some aren't. But it reinforces harmful stereotypes. (I hope) this author won't write such a blanket statement regarding gender, nationality, or ethnicity without strong backing. He shouldn't write on neurodivergence, either.

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> No, autism is not related whatsoever to the lack of empathy!

I did a quick google search about this and found:

"Research from 2018 has shown that autistic people may have difficulties with cognitive empathy (recognizing another person’s emotional state) but not affective empathy (the ability to feel another’s emotional state and a drive to respond to it)."

-- https://psychcentral.com/autism/autism-and-empathy#the-reali...

so maybe it's not that simple?

> Some are. Some aren't.

Well obviously. But if you're attacking absolutes, you're attacking a strawman. The argument is whether significantly more autistic teachers are worse than non-autistic ones.

> so maybe it's not that simple?

It is that simple. Autistic people have the ability to empathize, but have difficulty recognizing social cues that would ordinarily result in an expression of empathy.

The paper is obscuring this simplicity in jargon. Colloquially, people mostly interpret the term "empathy" in the sense of "the ability to empathize". Thus, when people overload "empathy" to ambiguously mean "the ability to empathize" or "the ability to recognize when to empathize", and then other people assert that "autistic people lack empathy", it produces the misconception that autistic people lack the ability to empathize. And since "the lack of ability to empathize" is associated with sociopathy, this produces the harmful misconception that autistic people are sociopaths. I have met people who have suffered this misconception and are surprised to learn that autistic people have feelings!

> people mostly interpret the term "empathy" in the sense of "the ability to empathize"

I'm not sure this is true, and possibly the same trick you accuse the paper of - you accept only one definition of "empathy" that helps you make your point

Another way to clarify the ambiguity is exactly as I put it - it's not that simple - plenty of people (in layterms) are called unempathic where there is no doubt they are capable of empathy, but choose not to apply it for some reason.

In other words, If you want to make the case the only definition of "empathy" is yours, you'll have to give me a good reason.

> In other words, If you want to make the case the only definition of "empathy" is yours, you'll have to give me a good reason.

Not that poster (and 12 days late) but I want to chime in here because I believe they're right. Let's say the researchers are using definition 2 for empathy whereas the person you're replying to is using definition 1 - purely because I believe most people don't naturally use the researcher's definition.

Let's give a scenario, a friend is working on an essay in a subject that I'm experienced with. They're struggling, they express this by tapping their foot, scratching at their head and shifting in their seat. I'm autistic, I don't respond to any of the gestures because none of them ring any alarm bells for me.

After thirty minutes my friend expresses for the first time openly to me that they're frustrated and they're upset, they want my help. I now understand their experience and I jump in to help, assure them that the subject is just tough and that we can work on it together.

In this scenario researchers using definition 2 for empathy will say I'm incapable of it because I couldn't preempt my friend's feelings without them expressing it explicitly to me. The poster you're replying to using definition 1 says I am capable of empathy, with the caveat that I can't be empathic to emotions I can't detect.

But the researchers didn't pick just pick an alternative definition of the word - they identified two, including the posters definition. This represents a more complete picture of empathy, including your "caveat", than the statement "autism is not related whatsoever to the lack of empathy".

There's also a component of this missing - empathy is usually somewhat non-intentional - as in you don't choose what signals make you feel. It's not clear to me an autistic person told something would have the same impact. Even in non-autistic people, an experienced narrated/described doesn't usually have the same reaction as one experienced, and I think this is an important part of empathy (in a game-theoretic/evolutionary sense) as something that is not calculated.

> There's also a component of this missing - empathy is usually somewhat non-intentional - as in you don't choose what signals make you feel.

This line is very difficult to draw because we freely pollute the meaning of empathy as an internal feeling with empathy as an external behaviour. Under this definition of empathy we could be compelled to consider blind people incapable of empathy as they're incapable of recognising facial expressions, for obvious reasons we know better.

> It's not clear to me an autistic person told something would have the same impact. Even in non-autistic people, an experienced narrated/described doesn't usually have the same reaction as one experienced, and I think this is an important part of empathy (in a game-theoretic/evolutionary sense) as something that is not calculated.

The autistic response isn't calculated either, just lacking the facility to recognise some behavioural expressions of emotion. I'm an autistic man but as a child I recall collecting mountains upon mountains of stuffed toys, when they piled high enough to tumble from the bed I'd wake to some of them on the floor and I'd weep at the thought those toys had felt "left out" by being pushed from the bed overnight. (I was very young, cut some slack)

This kind of refrain is common, autistic people when questioned express feeling intense overwhelming affective empathy. Where autistic people classically struggle is in cognitive empathy employed as a social hierarchy mechanism and in socially acceptable expressions of empathy.

> No, autism is not related whatsoever to the lack of empathy!

Also mentioned below, but https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/broken-mirrors-a-... would suggest exactly that it is related (or better, lack of empathy and autism are concomitant). You do have to consider the role of mirror neurons in empathy to make the connection.

I had a math professor who I'm pretty sure was borderline autistic. His son actually was autistic. While he wasn't the best math teacher I've ever had, he was very good. (Didn't help that I can't comprehend delta-epsilon proofs.)

Would love to see examples that buck the stereotype. That doesnt match my experience but I’m open to believing that my limited higher education experience across 5 schools that matches so many other’s is just coincidence.

I would be for a national math teacher award based on how articulate, sociable, neurotypical, and able to teach they are.

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