I stopped reading when he brought the Bible into things. I have no time to waste on that sort of thing.
I'm agnostic as well, but I think it's an ignorant position to take to pretend that the Bible hasn't had an enormous influence in the continued story of humanity.
Check out the background on this book if you're not familiar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Pervert.
edit: to the people who want to argue this: show me a body of work which has been more influential on western society. What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values. The influence of the bible is so ingrained into our society that you will live out the values within it even if you don't realize it.
And that kindof makes sense, doesn't it? Some guys wrote down some stories which at the time were being passed orally, these stories became really popular, and the society which was telling these stories and using them to pass their moral philosophy became prosperous.
The Catholic Church was a (not so)pseudo government in Europe for almost 2000 years, and was the leader and authority in philosophy and art. The idea that somehow none of this is foundational to western civilization is absurd and completely ahistoric.
People hear "the bible is foundational" and I think they're hearing "the magical stories in the bible are literally true. God sat on a cloud and poofed western civilization into existence!"
What I'm saying is that, the Dawkins sense, The Bible was an extremely successful meme. I don't think that's even up for debate.
>Not everyone eats everything Jordan Peterson says.
People need to find more internet people to hate. Christopher Hitchens was saying the same thing to impressionable teenagers in the early 2000s, and so was Richard Dawkins. Before that there was this little known German Philosopher saying something similar too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#Death_of_G...
I would say at the very least the bible is one of the most important pieces of literature in the world, has had a tremendous impact in all its forms, played a role in the formation of the modern world's moral codes, and at the same time, is not the unique, one, and only "foundational" document leading to the modern western world- there isn't one.
(FWIW, I really do respect the King James bible as a world of literature, even though I am agnostic and consider the Silmarillion to be a more enjoyable origin story)
He absolutely has relevance considering he's the most recent prominent public figure pushing the Bible as "the foundational stories" without which we cannot live. Yes, there are others and it may be that OP arrived at this independently, but I've heard this most from his followers.
I acknowledge that I may've been slightly nudged by OP's unfounded "You have no time to waste on western civilization's foundational text?", which sounded extremely judgmental to me, but shouldn't have jumped on the bait.
I think it's a pretty dull tactic to namedrop e-celebs you don't like as a very crude way of making a point. Clearly you have some fairly progressive views, so it'd be a bit like if I brought up other e-celeb clowns like Hasan or Destiny specifically so I could make a bad dunk. That kind of discourse just doesn't have a place on HN, imo.
I don't doubt you can think of better ways to articulate your points, and I'd encourage you to do so.
I came across this sort of thing a lot in my life from Christians trying to convert me so I don't necessarily have the same amount of patience as others might to these sorts of tactics.
Note that I'm not even arguing against reading it to inform oneself, (something I've done multiple times), just this particular tactic of trying to get people to read it.
That's all.
That's not what I hear. What I hear is more along the lines of "What's in the Bible is somehow original/more profound than what came before and so THAT is the book to take note of", which just isn't true.
> People need to find more internet people to hate. Christopher Hitchens was saying the same thing to impressionable teenagers in the early 2000s, and so was Richard Dawkins.
Yes, they all pander to similar audiences be it back when Hitchens and Dawkins are more akin to Sam Harris imo.
That being said, there are lots of Bible references in the canon of English language literature. So if ones goal is to understand that, then a synopsis of the Bible stories and commonly quoted phrases might just be sufficient. The book is dry, repetitive and a bit inconsistent. It's value is that it is really old and is associated with a big religion. If a modern writer created the same thing it would have a really low rating on Goodreads.
You will find no mention of The Bible or any of its characters in The Federalist Papers. You will find much discussion of classical governments and several references to Montesquieu. John Locke specifically cited Euclid as his influence and structured his writing to match. Lincoln, perhaps the most stridently moral of America's presidents, was known as the village atheist when he was a young man, studied Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, which put much of the blame on Christianity, and Paine's The Age of Reason. He carried Euclid's Elements with him until he could derive any of the propositions in the first six books at will.
It is only by the power of the ideas that Euclid's Elements (written in Alexandria) survives today. The Library of Alexandria was partially burned when Caesar set fire to the fleet in the harbor, which spread to the library and destroyed some part, to Caesar's embarrassment. Later, Christian zealots under Theophilus destroyed 10% of the collection. Finally, Muslim zealots under Caliph Omar destroyed the rest. Nobody looks to Theophilus's or Omar's governments as models of good government today.
A potential competitor would be Ancient Greek Philosophy (Socrates, Plato, Aristotle). Though it is hard to measure.
> What people seem to identify as 'western' values are largely just judeo christian values.
Nope, 'Judeo-Christian values' is a horrible Christian-Americanism that seems to erase the vast differences in Jewish and Christian experiences.
Judaism is a tribal religion with a huge focus on commandments given to said tribe and understanding the texts. Christianity is a religion concerned with the beliefs of all people, including non-Christians. The structure of their societies are quite different and historically Christian countries did not treat Jews well.
So I would add 'Judeo-Christian values' to the list of absurd and completely ahistoric ideas.
Any Christian or Jew will obviously acknowledge the many differences between the faiths, but I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems. Do you have many Jewish or Christian friends? I feel as if your understanding of Jewish/Christian culture is much more based on internet comments than lived experience.
If you want to understand, I encourage you to spend some time with devout Jews or devout Catholics and you'll begin to see the similarities.
I didn't know that, but this phrase seems to be common in the US. I have not encountered it much elsewhere.
> I'm confused that you seem to be saying there aren't HUGE similarities in their value systems
I don't deny there are many similarities, but my lived experience is that the core values and tenets of the two religions are quite different. Maybe you have a different experience.
Judaism also has many similarities with Samaritanism and Islam. So why don't we speak speak of Abrahamic values? My point is I am suspicious of the term 'Judeo-Christian values'.