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Comment by CookieCrisp | Hacker News Reader

I think the advantage of using them is too great, companies that use the networks will outcompete ones that don't -- even if it were made illegal in the US it won't be everywhere. I imagine when it comes down to it, the law's going to be pragmatic. What happens to US industries if we allow this, and what happens if we don't, and my guess is that it ends up being allowed.

I'm not saying that's good or right - I really don't know how I even feel about the AI networks morally... I just think money is going to win out.

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Copyright exists to incentivize authors, artists, scientists, etc. to create original works by providing a temporary monopoly.

The arguments suggesting that people shouldn't benefit from their work on an individual level, and pointing to music piracy as an example of why we shouldn't try, strike me as arguments for general inaction and fatalism. Not sure what the goal is, there...

The goal is to get these people to face reality. The fact is we are in the 21st century, the age of information. Their creations are just data, and data can be copied, processed and transmitted worldwide at negligible costs. There is no controlling it.

The goal is to make them stop trying to control it. Because their attempts to control it are ruining computers for all of us. We already have harmful stuff like DRM on every chip because of these people. Platforms are getting more locked down, our freedom as users and programmers is decreasing. They will destroy free computing as we know it if this keeps going unchecked.

Because someone may see a version of reality where people are incapable of benefiting from their own work does not mean that it's by any means a settled issue or indicative of "Reality". I doubt these conversations would exist if it was. It is indeed the current year, but that doesn't mean that because things can be metaphorically distilled with false and reductionist equivalencies, that it should all be free for the taking to benefit a few people who outran regulation.

Regarding the concept of control, artists were first put in a defensive position by the individuals who started using their work without their consent, and who are trying exercise their own control over the artwork produced by others through monetizing outputs. Are only companies like Stability.AI, OpenAI, and Midjourney exclusively permitted to use and control the artwork of others, and allowed to charge for access to models which use this artwork without compensation or accreditation to the original authors? Are those artists computers not also being ruined? Do they not deserve representation?

We need to stop demonizing the idea that someone can benefit from their work because there are some companies that have fought to extend copyright for their own benefit.

Copyright REFORM is generally a much more supportable issue than the idea that everything should be free in perpetuity...

> does not mean that it's by any means a settled issue or indicative of "Reality". I doubt these conversations would exist if it was.

It is the reality of computing. Anyone trying to deny that is going to discover that bits are bits and there is no control unless you end computer freedom. It takes tyranny such as mandating that computers only run government signed software to change this reality. This is the sort of thing that will happen if this copyright insanity continues and it will also pave the way to absurdities like regulation of cryptography.

> We need to stop demonizing the idea that someone can benefit from their work

Nobody is doing that. They can benefit from their work as much as they want. Plenty of creators are benefiting right now from patronage via platforms like Patreon. They're getting paid for the act of creating, not for sales of an artiticially scarce product. Copyright is not necessary.

The reality of physics and biology is that if someone is bigger and stronger than someone else, they can beat them up and take their things. Anyone trying to deny that is going to discover there is no control unless you end the freedom of unlimited violence. It takes tyranny such as mandating that beating people for no reason and taking whatever they have using the tool of your superior physical strength results in punishment imposed by collective agreement of society.

You're actually comparing these copyright issues to physical violence? I don't even know what to say. They're not even in the same conceptual space.

I don't think this is freedom - as long as some company with a million time the resources that I have can train a better model, I'm only ever using the models someone with power gives me, no matter how small a device the model runs on.

Having larger models and adapting the weights is one thing but the innovation is mostly on the side of large entities.

> Copyright exists to incentivize authors

It's ideas (memes) copying themselves, making variations, evolving. Until now ideas could only jump from human to human, intermediated by various media. Now they can be unified and distilled into a model, a more efficient medium of replication for ideas, and more helpful in general because it can be adapted to new situations on the fly.

So the same argument should advacate for having no patents, the advantage of just stealing everyone's patents is too great and not all countries enforce patents

Patents are nonsense and are an impediment to progress. They are a government granted monopoly.

You can argue that patents are an INCENTIVE to progress, since people are INCENTIVIZED to create newer and better things knowing that they will be able to enjoy the results of their labor without copycats leeching on their work and ingenuity. I think the pharma model of short-time allowed patents is the best, something like a 10 year competition free period is completely fair to INCENTIVIZE people to create the iPhones and cancer cures of tomorrow.

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