Comment by Vt71fcAqt7 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Vt71fcAqt7 | Hacker News Reader

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It shouldn't be surprising that lard is healthier than vegetable oil. Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing. Meat has always been a staple in the human diet. It's the hunt in hunting and gathering: the gathering mainly beeing fruit, but admittedly also seeds. but of course the oil obtained in seeds never reached the amount we have now. While that's not conlclusive in itself there has actualy been a lot of research on polyunsaturated fatty acids lately with worrying results.

One could reasonably phrase the question this way: what evidence is there that polyunsaturated fatty acids are healthy?

Also, it's unreasonable to say that in a study of 15,000 people, the cause of those who used vegetable oil were those with ASCVD and therefore chose to cook with it.

In any event, this possibilty is ruled out:

>Based on 15,242 Chinese elderly people over 65 years old who had long-term adherence to dietary habits and types of edible oils,[...]

>And of course the usual link to wider socioeconomic status needs a bit more exploring.

This is accounted for in the article. In fact "evaluation of other variables" makes up the entire alaysis.

Your argument is the appeal to nature [1]. Sure, there is evidence for the healthiness of different kinds of fats, but that some are "natural" while others are "processed" isn't a valid reason itself.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

As I said:

>While that's not conlclusive in itself there has actualy been a lot of research on polyunsaturated fatty acids lately with worrying results.

I don't see why you've put quotes around the word "natural" as I didn't use this word. I also never said the being processed is why vegetable oil is bad, only that it's necessity precludes it from having been consumed by humans historicaly speaking. The apeal to nature argument is that something that exists naturaly is good. My arguemt is that since food consumption is a primary driver of evolution, foods consumed by a species are generaly better for that species than a random food. You can say that one class of argumet contains the other but it's a meaningless statement for our discussion. And as I said much research as already been done on this subject in the last two decades.

Can you post the research articles covering PUFAs?

Your conclusion is surprising considering omega3 and 6 fatty acids, both PUFAs, are essential for the human diet

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27251151/

Some passages:

>More direct evidence demonstrating that canola oil and soybean oil - 2 major vegetable oils consumed worldwide - differ in their effects on markers of DM in rats is shown in figure 25. In the figure 25, the 19C (19% canola oil) group showed higher insulin resistance (HOMA-IR) and more damage to pancreas β-cells than the 19S (19% soybean oil) and 7S (control) groups. The 19C group presented lower percentage of pancreatic islets area in comparison to 19S (-41%) and 7S group (-70%, p < 0.0001) [51]. DM patients in Japan are characterized by exhibiting both insulin resistance and impaired insulin secretion. This animal study is the first to demonstrate that a common vegetable oil, accounting for more than 40% of vegetable fats and oils consumed in Japan, impaired pancreatic function to secrete insulin. Similarly, these 2 vegetable oils differentially affected oxidative stress-related enzymes in erythrocytes and vascular properties in the SHRSP rat [52].

>Despite the palatability of palm oil, its safety has not been established even though many articles from exporting countries emphasize its safety. For example, palm oil unusually promotes mutagen-induced colon carcinogenesis comparable to high-linoleic safflower oil, using perilla oil as a control (fig. 31) [61]. The difference in the rate of carcinogenesis between perilla oil and safflower oil has been explained in terms of the n-6/n-3 balance and the established concept of the arachidonic acid (ARA) cascade promoting carcinogenesis. However, given that the linoleic acid content of palm oil is very low, unidentified minor components must be responsible for the unusual cancer-promoting activity observed. Similarly, olive oil increased mutagen-induced aberrant cryptic foci in rats [62], and the involvement of minor components in olive oil is suspected given that oleic-rich safflower oil with a fatty acid composition similar to that of olive oil does not promote carcinogenesis [63].

>Fig. 31

>Unusual cancer-promoting activities of palm oil and olive oil in animal experiments. Data for palm oil (left) are from Narisawa et al. [61] and those for olive oil (right) are from Onogi et al. [62]. Refer to figure 22 for the fatty acid composition of vegetable oils used. In the left figure, * p < 0.01 vs. other groups. In the right figure, * p < 0.05 and * p < 0.01 vs. olive oil group. http://www.karger.com/WebMaterial/ShowPic/509075

>In addition to its cancer-promoting activity (fig. 31), palm oil was shown to shorten the survival of mice [64] and induce hyper-insulinemia in rats [65]. We strongly argue, therefore, that increasing the supply of palm oil as an alternative to industrial trans-fat is not a safe path to take.

Regarding your point about omega 3 and 6: yes, they are necessary, but that doesn't make vegatable oil "good." Additionaly, there may be too much omega 6 in many vegetable oils:

>thus, it is not the saturated to polyunsaturated ratio but the n-6/n-3 ratio of dietary lipids that is crucial for the prevention of CVD, DM and several other elderly onset diseases [39,58,70] as Bibus and Lands [94] recently reviewed. Currently, people in industrialized countries generally ingest several-fold more linoleic acid than is essential (0.5% of energy) and the intake of n-3 fatty acids is relatively deficient. The more than 3-fold higher CHD mortality in the US as compared to Japan is likely to be due to the higher n-6/n-3 balance of ingested foods in the US.

The literature I've seen has also discussed the omega6-3 ratio, which I personally use flax oil to balance so I would agree that is probably an important factor.

However none of what you've posted here says "polyunsaturated fats are bad". The statement I responded to is a gross mischaracterization which lacks the nuance that PUFAs are important for the diet, but the amount we consume them in is what's important.

I keep seeing people shouting about how PUFAs are all bad, but that's actually entirely wrong when the statement is taken at face value

The criticisms I've seen come with an awareness that PUFAs exist in animal fats too, and are virtually unavoidable and healthy in those smaller amounts and nutritional contexts. They argue that the dose makes the poison, and PUFA consumption has increased many-fold in the modern era causing a great fraction of metabolic syndrome and associated chronic diseases.

I've found Peter Dobromylskyj particularly interesting on this topic:

https://hyperlipid.blogspot.com/

There's nothing on that website, unfortunately

Sorry: https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

As the sibling comment says, I'm not arguing that PUFAs are bad per se but that the reason why vegatable oils are bad is because of PUFAs, namely the n-3/n-6 ratio. So you are correct about my innitial comment:

>One could reasonably phrase the question this way: what evidence is there that polyunsaturated fatty acids are healthy?

This comment is not worded the best way. But I point out later what I meant:

>Regarding your point about omega 3 and 6: yes, they are necessary, but that doesn't make vegatable oil "good." Additionaly, there may be too much omega 6 in many vegetable oils

You are also technically correct in saying 'However none of what you've posted here says "polyunsaturated fats are bad"' as that includes my own comments, which never directly said polyunsaturated fats are bad, only that vegetable oil is bad. I admit that my innitial wording should have been better.

>The statement I responded to is a gross mischaracterization which lacks the nuance that PUFAs are important for the diet, but the amount we consume them in is what's important.

The statement you responded to does not mention PUFAs at all. In regards to my earlier comment, it is not a "gross mischaracterization" but semantics. That it "lacks the nuance" of qualifying the statement to "oils high in PUFAs" rather than PUFAs themselves is not relevant to the argument of whether vegetable oils are healthy compared to lard and meat, being that the latter two also have PUFAs. What is then meant is this: (Meat) protien is healthy even if one consumes 200g a day. protein itself is therefore healthy. Same can be said about some carbs. For an admittedly extream example, sodium is not healthy, and neither is cholride. When we say food x contains y amount of sodium we do not mean pure sodium. Since usual consumption of PUFAs found in vegetable oil exceeds a healthy ratio, it is reasonable to question the necessary assumption that "PUFAs are healthy" which is the entire extent to which I said 'PUFAs are bad' that is, not at all. This isn't as stong of a question when it comes to meat because taken as a whole it must be "healthy enough" as it is naturaly consumed by the species and also has lower concentrations to begin with. All this leads to the fact that when people talk about PUFAs, they are talking about vegetable oils, which is a misnomer technically spesking but that is how it has developed. But even not reading my statement that way it still does not read PUFAs are bad.

I would argue that consuming equivalent amounts of vegetable oils or lard are equally unhealthy. Saturated fatty acids have their own risks associated with high dose consumption. Diet is not all that simplistic and we shouldn't jump to conclusions and paint things with broad brush strokes

I definately agree that caloric intake is the ultimate issue wrt obesity and it's co-morbidities in western countries. But just know that until WW2 lard or butter was used in almost everything from cooking to baking. At that point in time obesity was nowhere near the level it is now where it is rightfuly considered an epidemic by most scientists. This said, caloric intake was lower and more importantly people were more active. It's difficult to pull these variables apart but I think it's fair to say that more research should be done.

In regard to your specific argument that "consuming equivalent amounts of vegetable oils or lard are equally unhealthy" it's hard to know as when people used lard they were healthier but also consumed less and exercised more. We can also speculate that vegetable oils might lend itself better to be used in baking than lard was and by some process increases total consumption; perhaps it tastes better or lasts longer, for example. It seems from the study linked in the OP, however, that lard is better than at least rapeseed/canola oil. But like I said more research should be done: our speculation today should not preclude investigation and ultimately conclusive understanding. That said we do need to "pick a side" for the time being, if not as a colective then as individuals because we can't stop eating until conclusive results are found.

>Diet is not all that simplistic and we shouldn't jump to conclusions and paint things with broad brush strokes

Agreed. I don't think Iv'e made that mistake, even if my comments perhaps read that way.

I was referring to specific issues with saturated fatty acids such as increased LDL and ApoB, not caloric intake

You’re assuming a logical fallacy too easily.

The frequency with which it’s found “natural” food is better for us is not to say only “natural” food is better, but it is a real trend, as such worth taking into consideration when making choices about what to eat.

> Think about things like cotton-seed oil, rapeseed oil and canola oil. These things are imposible to consume without industrial processing.

I would include olive oil in this too. I once tried to eat an olive off the tree. Never again. Completely inedible. Heavily processed for human consumption.

Edit: canola and rapeseed are the same thing

Good luck eating a cow fresh out of the pasture.

I have always wondered about it. Would actually fresh beef be tough? And by fresh I mean eating it same day it is butchered.

I've actually inquired about that, since I'm Paleo.

You can buy beef that is frozen the same day its butchered from small local farms, and from the people I know who have done that (and have half a cow in their chest freezers to prove it), it's absolutely delicious and tender.

You can totaly do that. You can also eat meat completly raw. These guys[0][1] are certainly looking better than most vegans at least (from a muscle perspective)

[0]https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/bodybuilder-brian...

[1]https://nypost.com/2021/10/05/man-has-lived-on-raw-meat-diet...

Two stories of individual experiences eating raw meat compared to “most vegans”. Don’t account for starting health, genetic disposition, or economic status. Since we’re judging health purely on your esthetic definition of “looking better”, I raise you 22 vegan body builders[0].

[0] https://www.greatveganathletes.com/category/vegan-bodybuilde...

These guys most likley make up >20% of all known raw meat eaters. There is therfore no selection bias. Those guys literaly are the average raw meat eater. You have selected only "vegans" who are bodybuilders. Also I doubt that most of the bodybuilders in your link are really vegan.

Brian Johnson, the “Liver King” is presenting a physique almost certainly unattainable without supplying anabolic steroids, testosterone and/or human growth hormone to the body. Given that, I’d take claims with regards to his diet with a grain of salt. I’d even go as far as to extend that skepticism to all fitness “influencers”.

Yea those shoulders scream "anabolics"

They’re on juice.

Olive oil is very different from other vegatable oil in that it is mostly monounsaturated. Olives do need to be cured, and honestly they might not have been consumed until somewhat recently:

>The cultivated olive seems to have coexisted with humans for about 5,000 to 6,000 years, going back to the early Bronze Age (3150 to 1200 BC). For thousands of years olives were grown primarily for lamp oil, with little regard for culinary flavor.

In the case of rapeseed:

>Rapeseed oil is one of the oldest known vegetable oils, but historically was used in limited quantities due to high levels of erucic acid, which is damaging to cardiac muscle of animals, and glucosinolates, which made it less nutritious in animal feed.[19] Rapeseed oil can contain up to 54% erucic acid.

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