Why we are taking our startup to Hong Kong and other crazy stories of 2011
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However, professionally speaking? Forget about it. It's a horrible place for programmers. In the last couple months I've met with 2 entrepreneurs looking to move to Hong Kong as well as 2 founders already in Hong Kong. I purposefully did not lead, but all four conversations immediately went to the lack of available talent. And, we weren't talking about the lack of talent the way it is in SF or NY (where there's talent, but it's working for someone else), we are talking about the fact that if you could pick a dream team of all programmers living in Hong Kong, it wouldn't be very dreamy.
Most of the senior programmers are long-time bank employees. Their X years of experience is the same year X times. They are risk adverse and creatively challenged. What's really troubling though is that the young programmers (interns, new graduates) have a strong desire to work for the bank. It's culture...working for the bank is what they want to do. Non CS students will take programming internships because "that's what was available at the bank".
Of course you can point to some small communities or some example company, but you really have to realize that hiring is going to be a challenge you might not be able to overcome. You'll almost certainly have to get your "senior" programmers from abroad, and recruiting your talent is going to be unlike anything you've seen state-side.
Working in undeveloped markets tends to be both more difficult, but also can be much more rewarding.
I was based in Asia for 12 years hiring web development and design teams. Six of my 12 years were in HK. Finding top talent is very challenging there. I tended to hire young and train, anything else never worked out.
HK is not a cheap city to live in. I realize that it can be done cheaply, but that loses its charm quickly. Like, goodbye farmers markets and even semi-affordable organic food.
Also, if anyone else is considering HK, keep in mind that the investment model is almost purely driven by connections.
Conversely, I knew several niche development companies that had set up shop in Thailand, outside of Bangkok, and had unbelievably low overhead and very talented developers. That was years ago, but it always struck me as a savvy model.
Anyone else looking at Asia should consider Singapore as well. They have some amazing investment programs run by the government at any given time.
I used to run a company in Thailand (not tech) but now I just live here and run a company offshore. I've become pretty negative about the place with all of its idiosyncrasies and don't think I'd set up another company here.
I've currently got my eyes on HK. Friends of friends have established several business hiring locals (though not purely tech companies) there. Everything I've heard is that it's straightforward to get setup there. It's also easy to stay there with the various visa programs they have in place.
If you are an ad guy, artist, creative blah, designer blah, you are still given a smile. A programmer in the opinion of the suit coats(entrepreneurs!!) is a slave guy who executes their ideas. Trust me.
Try going to webwednesday; a meet up on some wednesday of the month.
I looked for programming jobs there and interned for 2 months. They do treat you like a slave and pay only $10,000 HKD a month. (around $300 a week).
I am an enthusiastic (and high scoring) software engineering student in Sydney. So yeah, if anyone wants to hire me to work in HK, see my profile for contact details.
You probably shouldn't move here unless you had something lined up before hand.
Currently living in southwest china, but coming from NYC so wondering if salaries are comparable? Are there any i-banks or hedge funds with dev shops in HK?
That said I'm really a UX guy with an enterprise background, so any BigCorp would do.
Only caveat: I have very little putonghua and zero guangdonghua. How screwed am I?
If you do that you are fine in HK with english-only (professionally speaking. Socially, I could see it annoying some people (english is an official language in fact only), but it has never bothered me). As for salary, I don't know if they are identical to NY or London salaries, but it's gotta be in the same ballpark.
HSBC might be the only large international bank where english-only would be a problem (though I'm really not sure, just heard a few things).
Some notable communities to checkout:
http://codeaholics.hk/ - Technology agnostic programming community
http://www.startupshk.com/ - A tight-knit startup community
http://boot.hk/ - A great gathering place for hackers and builders.
See you in Hong Kong!
One other problem we run into on FB is that people use random photos and user names so we have no idea who half of them are, even if we have met the people before.
I'm one of the founders for all of the above, in one role or another.
The fact that wealth-builders, and innovative startup founders that seek to create new frontiers can't legally find a way of staying in this country is preposterous.
1. I pay that much rent. In a small city.
2. ... with limited programming work
3. ... with higher expenses
4. ... with lower wages
If I could simply move to SV to work, I would. But I can't.
Wherever you go on the planet, there will be people seeing a human being in you. Welcoming you and making a son, a brother, a father, a lover, a friend out of you.
There will also be a government to remind you you don't belong.
BTW, my wife really likes Hong Kong (we were there 15 months ago) so this would be an easy sell for me to talk her into it.
BootHK (http://boot.hk) is my space I opened and is mostly hotdesk space for early startups. HK Commons is a little more for established companies that are still 2-4 people and growing. There are also more traditional serviced office type offerings, but that isn't quite as interactive with the general community.
I am from HK and if you want to know more about HK you can contact me.
I've lived in HK during my student exchange and loved every minute of it - I also have an employee working from Hong Kong.
At some point I'll set up teams to target Asian markets with China as the most important one.
What are pro's and con's of HK vs Shanghai?
Edit: Thanks for all the answers! I really want to go back to HK now :)
However, I think China Government does welcome startups in Shanghai/Beijing with more goodies and support than Hong Kong's gov.
I spent 3+ weeks in HK in October of 2000 - but most of that time was partying - so I really didnt learn much about the place whilst there.
The Hong Kong Telecommunity Authority is, therefore, not required to implement the GFW.
Even in China, there are some GFW-free spots. You might find some 5-star hotels giving you unrestricted access to the likes of Facebook, Google+ etc
The occupy wall street people in Hong Kong are actually camped INSIDE the HSBC HQ building (granted, it's a special open-ground-floor building). But the sense that you get from HK is one of more freedom than the west, not less.
The internet is broken in China. Rather than an international internet, we've got a really fast domestic intranet. Not only is every cool, important site since 2004 blocked (e.g. Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Dropbox...), but VPNs are less reliable than they used to be. Gmail is unreliable. Even paying for significant bandwidth, international sites are slow and video is a pain. I've seen an office full of really smart people's unproductive because they can't load a basecamp page or because dropbox transfers through a VPN move at a crawl.
Every time I go to HK, it's like a breath of fresh air having the internet. For this reason alone, I'd say don't do a start-up in China unless your market is China and you plan to be using primarily Chinese services.
That being said, big differences are the ease in setting up a company and costs. Ease of getting visas and the general paperwork. Also, HK is much safer than any of the mainland cities. The big cities are probably about similar to New York in terms of safety, but Hong Kong is ridiculously safe in comparison. There are basically no areas that you really shouldn't go to, and the medical system is quite good and reliable vs. mainland.
Also, one nice feature, no corporate tax if the income is from outside of Hong Kong.
As a software development consulting company, the pro is that there's a big market but if you want to do your own product then HK is the way to go...
Launching a web based product in China is dangerous because it's very hard to predict what will happen (you could be shut down by the government for one reason or another). Also cost of living and salary wise, Shanghai is anything but cheap (housing is cheaper than hong kong but the rest is not that much cheaper).
For the internet connection, it's manageable when using a ssh tunnel to a private server in the US... But it's a bit of pain (without that and tsocks even doing a bundle install in ruby takes a very long time and often times out)
The downside to Singapore is that they are authoritarians. Confucian capitalists, you might say. William Gibson famously called it "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" in a Wired article of that title.
Singapore is a de facto single-party state with a strong prime minister. Is that good or bad? That depends on whether we're talking Aurelius or Mao. Having spent the better part of a week in Singapore this past summer, I can tell you that it was the only place on my itinerary where I thought, "I'd love to have a place here." (The other destinations were Thailand, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Ireland.) If I were to have a residence or business in Singapore, probably my biggest fear would be not government oppression, but rather the People's Action Party losing control, probably to the quasi-communist Workers' Party—i.e., a triumph of "democracy" over the highly effective government Singapore has today.
It won't be like this forever. I think the autonomous government deadline is 50 years. When this happens, it won't be as "free" as it is now.
This is also only if the Chinese government doesn't go back on their word.
If you truly want a free country, go to Taiwan. Taipei is just as vibrant as HK.
Singapore is consistently rated by the World Bank/International Finance Corporation as the number 1 country in the world to do business[1]. That covers the ease of starting a business, contract enforceability, getting credit, and other metrics that are necessary precursors to getting started.
Although China's rise has been the largest in absolute economic terms, Singapore has probably been the fastest.
1. http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/singapore...
Singapore is very pro-business.
For myself, as an Australian, Singapore is more attractive because of its proximity.
Hong Kong is also a global flight hub...in fact, compared to the US, most places in Asia are relatively close to each other.
If Singapore does have a tax advantage or a geographic advantage, it really can't be significant enough to be the reason you pick one versus the other.
If however I were doing business in China, Korea or Japan, Hong Kong would be a better base.
Another place to check out is the govt sponsored incubator at Cyberport http://www.cyberport.hk/en/about_cyberport/our_5_centres/ent...
Look forward to seeing you around HK
Once I settle, I will definitely invite you to Nigeria. Your visas will be taken care of ;)
Has anyone introduced you to the internet yet?
I am a Colombian, quick! make a joke about drug trafficking!
Anyone got any specifics on the logistics of moving to HK and setting up?
How's the money flow over there? VC/angel funding space?
There has always been funding but investors don't usually add as much values as ones here do. The main reason could be these investors made their fortune from other non tech business like stock or real estate real estate. They are usually great business minded people but they may have a hard time advising tech startups.
One thing that is lacking are founders of successful companies that are investing in new ones, but it takes time to grow the ecosystem.
What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a year?
FWIW, others have recommended Singapore, and one nice thing about Singapore is that they have a pro-entrepreneur Visa process, though it seems a bit focused on business that will be hiring singaporeans, so the traditional tiny consumer internet startup might have trouble meeting their requirements.
Singapore is an expensive place to live, housing wise (though I hear food is super cheap and super plentiful with a massive "Street food"/mall-food-court culture).... though I imagine HK real estate isn't cheap either.
The approach we're taking is that we're going places where our core costs are low-- apartment for the founders plus food, etc, and trying to make our funds last longer that way, and then working with people remotely to expand our staff.
My US friends have been doing it for two years, I'm English and have been doing it for 15 months (but we brits get 6 months at a time)
They'll screw you if you overstay.
tl;dr: HK != China.
Housing is expensive, yes, but you can live cheaply in HK if you're willing to adjust your standards downwards: you can get a tiny flat in a low-rent area without worrying about violent crime, you can eat at cheap diners or buy groceries at cheap wet markets without worrying about food-borne diseases, etc, owning a car is logistically & socially unnecessary, etc. Not everyone needs these guarantees but it helps if you're the kind of person who worries a lot =)
What is the visa situation like in Hong Kong? I've read elsewhere that getting a visa for China is very difficult (this might be an area where HH is different from CN). Are you able to get reasonably long visas so that you can stay there indefinitely, or will you have to relocate again in 6 months or a year?
HK Immigration Department is totally separate from mainland China. Different laws, different visa types, different procedures. It's not that hard to get a real visa here. ImmD is strict about their requirements but they are not mysterious, arbitrary, or painfully slow like USCIS. There is a self-sponsored employment visa (called "investment visa", but it doesn't require big capital investment, just a business plan). It does have to demonstrate some sort of benefit to locals, but that can be in terms of using local suppliers for goods and services, rather than hiring lots of local workers. There's also the QMAS visa, a sort of points-based skilled migration visa that gives you more flexibility.
http://www.emigra.com.hk/hongkong/page76.php http://www.immd.gov.hk/ehtml/QMAS.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality_Migrant_Admission_Schem...
Trying to work for your own company while on a tourist visa is a gamble. For 90 days you'll be okay. Longer term, some people have josscrowcroft's experience and go on visa runs for years without trouble. If you're low profile and don't compete with local companies the Immigration Dept. may ignore you. But others end up like this Aussie who came to HK to give a risk management seminar and got two months in prison followed by deportation for working illegally: http://news.sina.com.hk/news/2/1/1/2352180/1.html
If you decide to stay really longer term, the system is generally quite fair (at least to skilled workers and students; if you're a maid or construction worker it's a whole other kettle of fish): permanent residence takes seven years, but your "clock" doesn't reset if you change employers (e.g. if you get acquired and become an employee sponsored by your acquirer), and there's no ridiculous quota on how many PRs are approved each year. And once you have PR it's actually permanent: you can vote, you cannot be deported and there's no bullshit about "losing status" for filing a tax return as a non-resident or going back to your home country for a couple of years.