Hacker News Reader

Comment by Buttons840 | Hacker News Reader

My point was that should not be the message. Promising people the vaccine will save them is a false hope, people look around and find someone who got vaccinated but still died and now the trust is broken.

Instead, tell people about the trial control group vs treatment group, let people see that there is risk on both sides, but that the treatment group was ultimately better off. Use minimal interpretation. I'd like to see so much focus on the trial outcomes that the number of people who died in both groups is a household fact that families talk about.

View on HN

Just give angry religious zealots a crash course in genetics and epidemiology, its so easy! Why isn't the CDC doing this? /s

Presumably more people are getting sick and dying in the control group. People can understand "more people dead" even without taking a genetics course.

You'd be surprised. The data is overwhelming, and this group of highly trained techies still contains many who call the COVID vaccines "clot shot".

There is nothing so obvious that people cannot fail to understand if sufficiently motivated.

We've had 4 vaccines available in my country at the beginning (astrazeneca, moderna, pfeizer and J&J). Astrazeneca killed a few people in neighbouring countries (clot issues), so we stopped using that. J&J killed a young girl in my country, so we stopped using that too. Moderna killed people in northern/scandinavian countries, and we got a recommendation not to use it on people below 50yo.

So, 3/4 vaccines went from safe to "clot shots" in just a few months.

Link to the J&J story?

https://www.gov.si/en/news/2021-11-30-expert-commission-conf...

> Simonovič presented the composition of the five-member commission, namely, three doctors (neurologist, infectologist and vascular specialist), a pharmacologist and Zoran Simonovič, a representative of the epidemiological profession. The commission reviewed the medical records of a 20-year-old patient who developed thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome following vaccination. The documentation included a treatment procedure as of the admission to the Clinical Department of Neurology in Ljubljana and a health record obtained from the patient’s personal doctor.

> The commission confirmed thrombosis with thrombocytopenia or vaccine-induced immune thrombotic thrombocytopenia. All criteria were met for the fulfilment of the diagnosis. Upon examining the medical records before the vaccination, the commission established that no conditions had been identified in the patient that could indicate problems after vaccine administration. “The commission unanimously assessed that there was a direct link between the vaccination with Janssen Johnson & Johnson and the tragic complication, i.e. the onset of the syndrome”, said Simonovič.

Thanks

You would be surprised: At the 6-month followup in Pfizer's trials, there were more dead in the vaccine group than the control group. It was very low, like 18 vs 15 IIRC in 40,000 who had been given the shot, but it's still enough to question the official claims.

That said they also lost track of or dropped 500-1000 people from that 40,000 sample.

Medical studies are immediately ended when someone dies in a group. So it is impossible for a study to determine a danger of death because the study will always be halted upon anyone's death. It's rather atrocious, but that's the way research works on willing human subjects.

Do you have a source for this?

Multiple people died over the course of the efficacy study for the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine, and yet they completed the study: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2034577

In general, what you claim would seem both surprising and impractical to me. There are many studies on very seriously ill groups, where the death of a large portion of participants is expected.

That is completely false. 18 people died in the Pfizer vaccine study and it went to completion.

You realize people die all the time? Even when participating in clinical trials?

Even when walking around eating ice cream. Death is everywhere. Capitalistic america hides it in hospitals and hospices. Our culture needs more visibility into the process of life to death. Instead, we have to learn it by watching one of our loved ones die, and hell, we don't even know if they are being treated right -- because no one ever tells us how death should go. It's all siloed. Fuck America.

>Presumably more people are getting sick and dying in the control group.

In the Pfizer mRNA vaccine clinical trial there were actually more deaths in the vaccine group than the control group, but the sample size wasn't large enough to draw any conclusions from this.

Right now more people are getting sick and dying more often in areas with lower vaccination rates. That information has been available for well over a year, and yet the vaccination rates haven't increased. What makes you think people don't understand, rather than that they just won't be convinced?

Right, instead they made false statements and overpromised which gave the anti-vacciners even more ammo.

It was a massive cock-up by the government.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com