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Comment by billybob | Hacker News Reader

I have a small fantasy of somehow forcing a company to agree to MY terms and conditions.

"By accepting this payment, you agree that..."

You're not the only one[1]:

<DmncAtrny> I will write on a huge cement block "BY ACCEPTING THIS BRICK THROUGH YOUR WINDOW, YOU ACCEPT IT AS IS AND AGREE TO MY DISCLAIMER OF ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AS WELL AS DISCLAIMERS OF ALL LIABILITY, DIRECT, INDIRECT, CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL, THAT MAY ARISE FROM THE INSTALLATION OF THIS BRICK INTO YOUR BUILDING." <DmncAtrny> And then hurl it through the window of a Sony officer <DmncAtrny> and run like hell

[1] http://bash.org/?577451

I had checks printed up that had that wording with a URL pointing to a page of T&C. It was the same language that was on my phone / cable bill. The checking account and the page are long gone, but it only had a couple of clauses. One was that this agreement overrides any other and that my ISP/web host was to notify me in writing via certified mail and allow a 2-week grace period before taking my account down for overages. They had a habit of preemptively taking down my site if I reached 85% of my bandwidth before the 15th of the month. And it was only down for the internet at large. Anyone on the ISP, including me, could still see it fine, which was very frustrating.

They always cashed the checks without complaint but I moved to a better hosting company about a year later and never got a chance to invoke the "agreement".

Nice idea about the checks. I need new ones and I just might see about doing similar myself.

It would be difficult but possible to organize a user's union that accepted/denied terms as a group. Something like a better business organization for software services. Hmmm -- the more I think about it the difficulties increase and the possibility decreases.

I wonder if a payment provider (Visa, Amex, etc) could insert consumer friendly terms into their merchant agreements.

They do. This is why, even after you are shipped a product from a merchant, you can go to your credit card company, take the money back from the merchant and ding them an extra fee on top. Meanwhile, there doesn't seem to be a good way for merchants to cite customers for fraudulent usages of these mechanisms (you might win the chargeback, but honestly if that happens the customer's credit card should be put on hold or cancelled).

Here's one that almost every small merchant ignores: http://www.mastercard.com/us/business/en/common/faq.html#211

"Q: Can a merchant charge me a fee to use my MasterCard card? Can a merchant require a minimum purchase amount to use my MasterCard card? A: The answer to the first question is almost never; the answer to the second question is not ever."

>Q: Can a merchant charge me a fee to use my MasterCard card? Can a merchant require a minimum purchase amount to use my MasterCard card? A: The answer to the first question is almost never;

Technically true, but merchants can offer a cash discount. It's effectively the same thing, with the key difference being that they can lower their stated price if you pay in cash, but they can't raise their price at time of purchase if you choose to use a credit card.

>the answer to the second question is not ever.

The FAQ is out of date on this point. Visa, Mastercard, and AmEx all started allowing a $10 minimum purchase last year:

http://consumerist.com/2010/09/amex-visa-mastercard-all-give...

As the article notes, this was a provision of the Dodd-Frank Act.

Travel agents and airlines throughout Europe started to charge processing fees (usually ~ 8EUR by airlines) when you pay by credit card.

Unfortunately there is usually no other reasonable means to pay for the service so I bite the bullet and pay it.

It bugs me and annoys me, but I think - at least in Europe - this is perfectly legal and within the framework of the merchant agreements.

(Don't get me started on the 20 Euro "Service Charge" I pay when I purchase a flight ticket on the internet for the privilege of doing their work by hacking the necessary data into their systems)

They do this. If the terms they present don't match the terms you present, you can refuse to pay them.

Oh, I understand what you are saying. And in truth, you could propose this. You could contact them with a counter proposal, and they'd probably just turn you down.

What would be interesting is a service that defines your default conditions in an easy to parse manner. You could then provide it to the service, and it could tell you quickly whether it met your needs, etc.

A better solution would be a political and legal reform, so crap like this from the heights of $$$ stops "trickling down" on everyone else.

LOL I have the same fantasy...a tiny written statement on the back of a check or inserted into a payment envelope...

Legally, you'd have to show a meeting of the minds.

I'm not sure if Sony can show that for their agreements, can they?

Well in theory, they presented a contract to you, you read it/had the opertunity to read it, and 'signed it', by agreeing to it.

Twould be interesting to try proving otherwise, since everyone knows people don't read, yet alone understand, those contracts.

Further, you can't use the device you've bought unless you click "agree". Anything else won't let you use it. I seriously doubt those things would hold up in court.

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