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In the PNW, particularly here in BC, Gore-TEX was an absolute game-changer for hikers. Throw on a tank top or tee-shirt, then your Gore-TEX jacket, and you could climb basically any local mountain between March and October, rain or shine. Every local hike went from being a moist, uncomfortable affair to being a joy regardless of the weather.

I had the same experience, except in the Sierra Nevada which doesn’t have conditions as extreme as yours. I had one of the original Gore-TEX ski jacket shells from The North Face, but got rid of it after a few months because it was too warm. It was insanely expensive when it came out.

What about rain shedding off your jacket onto your pants? This has totally been an issue for me and in inclement weather I wear (non breathable) rain pants (apparently the right word is bibs).

Then again you only say to put on a t-shirt and a jacket, no mention of pants -- I guess that's one way to solve the problem.

You can wear waterproof breathable pants, shorts, or pants that get wet but stay comfortable. Unless you’re biking or doing a similar activity or it’s raining very hard, you probably don’t get that much water shedding onto your pants.

I absolutely agree. The breathability of goretex is extremely poor to the point that I consider it a scam. If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour.

Gore-tex shells don't breath at all unless you keep up the DWR layer on the outside such that the rain beads off. However, if you do regularly maintain the DWR layer, the garment is waterproof anyways without Gore-tex, and more breathable. Moreover, the membranes don't really last a long time, a few year old gore-tex jacket will have a broken membrane, but the nylon outside shell will still look new. I'd guess that about 95% of Gore-tex shells in actual use are no longer waterproof or breathable due to the combo of a split membrane, and worn out DWR coating.

I agree that extreme mountaineering is the one use case where it makes sense. Also, usually with a new top quality outer layer for every trip or every few trips... Even then, there is probably better tech out there, like Columbia OutDry, which puts the membrane on the outside avoiding the need for PFAS based DWR.

My guess is that you do not live in a climate that resembles, say, the British Isles. Goretex was a total game changer in these environments (and as noted by other commenters, similarly in the PNW in N.America).

> If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour.

I grew up wearing both, and then later added waxed cotton. Sorry, just ick.

You can have my goretex jackets (Arcteryx, Berghaus, Mountain Equipment) when you pry them from the fingers of my not-so-cold, only-slightly-wet dead hands.

I am from the PNW and do a ton of hiking in the rain, this is how I came to have such a poor opinion of goretex. I’ll add that I sweat too much on a hard hike for goretex to keep up, which could be a physiological difference that makes it not work for me. Sweat will literally be pouring out the bottom of the shell.

For the light constant rain in the PNW, wool with the natural lanolin intact will keep me dry all day with incredible breathability. There are a few companies that make high end wool based gear. I’m also curious if you’ve actually tried a modern higher end polyurethane shell (not PVC) that has well designed vents all over it, or are you just talking about old fashioned PVC “oilskins” which lack good vents?

A couple of years ago, I did the Cape Wrath Trail (230 miles +/-) in the Scottish Highlands. 17 days with endless rain (+/-). I had a Mountain Equipment jacket and Rab non-goretex pants/trousers. Temperatures were mild. Can't imagine trying to wear wool (other than the smartwool t-shirt/fullsleeve tops I did wear). The GTX did wonderfully.

I would never wear GTX for trail running, for the reason you highlight. But then for trail running, short of a torrential downpour with cool/cold temps., I doubt I would wear anything waterproof at all.

It's a fair point that with venting, PU might be much better today than the PU shells of my youth, which were totally unvented.

Seems like you’re painting with a very broad brush. Ultralight 3L jackets like the Arc’teryx Alpha SL breath way, way better than a standard rain jacket. I actually A/B tested a standard 2L rain jacket vs the Alpha SL in hard rain while working hard and it was no competition. I was clammy and sweaty in the 2L rain jacket in about 90 seconds. I worked over 30 minutes in the Alpha and never got overly warm, and was totally dry.

When you’re mountaineering, sweat is really bad news. There’s a reason people wear $600 shells instead of $10 ponchos in the mountains.

>When you’re mountaineering, sweat is really bad news

Both messages above already agreed that in these situations it make sense. Sounds to me that you are arguing while agreeing :)

I live in a super rainy city, had to get a Gore-TEX rain jacket because others would just soak through walking the dog every day. It's been great so far, no complaints about breathability either on 1.5hr walks. All day hikes might be different, of course.

This was true 10 years ago and still is for many jackets. but the latest generation of wpb fabrics including gore tex pro and polar tech neoshell actually breath really well, like you can get a shell you can bike up hill in and not sweat out now. It’s crazy.

Actually, bike commuting is ine of the hardest scenarios for GoreTex in my experience.

Biking in general tends to put Your heart rate pretty high. It depends on intensity of course, but a brief 30-60s sprint to overtake someone or clear a traffic light will take You from a comfortable aerobic zone well into anaerobic. That means "a lot" of sweat eventually. Walking/ hiking does that a lot less.

At the same time, on a bike commute You need durability under mechanical stress (backpacks with laptops can get heavy real quick). Aaaand on top of that, ideally it needs to be reasonably cheap (or last for decades) to be economically viable.

Personally, for bikepacking, I found that the only Goretex that works is the Shakedry membrane. This is their most barebones slimmed-down membrane. Super breathable, great water / wind resistance, but it's so ligh You look at it sideways and it tears. Definitely can't wear a backpack with that one.

On the other hand, my hiking jacket is a 3 layer laminate Goretex Pro that I've used for about 8y now with 25+kg backpacks. Great, durable, waterproof, but You are right- it's not breathable enough for bike(unless You open up all the pit zips, which kinda beats the purpose of a waterproof membrane).

This might be true in the midwest but definitely isn't for my area, the PNW.

Synthetics without a membrane will wet through, and I assure you no amount of wool sweater underneath will save you from misery when that happens (I love wool btw, literally half my wardrobe is wool sweaters).

Likewise, hiking through the wet vegetation you find in many of the forests here will soak through your pants even if it's not raining.

With snowboarding on Mt Hood, having a shell with a membrane is absolutely necessary on the days where it hovers between rain and snow. Probably the highest value outdoor equipment I've ever bought is a gore tex balaclava for weather like that. It's a huge difference.

Some of the new soft shell materials do a lot better than synthetics + DWR, but they still fail in conditions like the above.

So, similar to Chesterlon's fence, perhaps it isn't that all of us buying membrane clothing have been duped by marketing, but rather you simply don't know when it's useful.

Until now, I have used Gore-Tex only in various kinds of shoes, for many years.

However, in all those kinds of shoes, Gore-Tex has provided a very noticeable improvement, through their ability of keeping the feet dry even when having to walk through water or partially-melted snow.

Even when just walking through a city for the daily commuting, I have found this feature very valuable, especially when going to an office where I would not be able to change my shoes with a dry pair.

So I disagree that Gore-Tex is useful only in an extended outdoor setting.

It has a place for mariners, too.

Things don't dry on boats. Wool and cotton clothing works like a moisture farm until they rot or fall apart otherwise.

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside.

Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid.

If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).

They work well in certain conditions, melting snow or muddy trails for example.

The heat from your feet will drive the phase change and the water will evaporate through the Gore-Tex.

Hard disagree. Goretex motorcycling boots are a godsend. You can easily get a lot of water on the shoes, and if you have waterproof pants that go over the boots, the water will not get inside.

Regular shoes that basically don't breathe are unusable when it's more than 20-25º C. It's not always practical to carry around two pairs of boots when out on a trip.

My pair of boots are usable in the rainy European winters at 0º C, all the way to the scorching heat of the Arizona desert. With regular shoes, I'd just freeze in the winter or have swampy feet in the summer. The wind speed sure helps in the latter, but it works against you in the former.

Thanks for an excellent description of a use-case where they make sense. Sounds great!

I used breathable boots but Goretex long socks (knee high) when doing infantry work in marshlands and wetted wood areas back in the military. It was a winning combination. The boot would get soaked and dry quickly, my feet kept dry. I'd put a lot of foot powder in my socks to avoid sweat ruining my feet.

Waterproof boots though are counterproductive.

This is also what I do on my bike. Waterproof socks instead of overshoes are much easier to use and work well for keeping feet warm and dry even when eg the boot gets completely soaked from spray or splashes.

The problem for me is the failure mode - step into something deeper than you thought, not able to stop and take them off, you’re going to be in trouble. Terrible failure mode worse than not bothering in the first place.

I would wear waterproof socks to dry my boots inside a patrol hide though.

Maybe for trail running, where you foot are constantly under water and the Gtx keeps the water inside. But for the daily walker in the rain, Gtx shoes are the best thing you can wear (eg the beat a well greased non Gtx Panamas), at least in my experience. Guess I'm at the height of stupidity.

That doesn't work in cold rainy conditions, you'll freeze without something to keep you dry, sweaty and warm is better than wet and hypothermic. You don't need breathable jackets but you need the waterproof.

Short of specialist arctic conditions, if you’re moving you’re going to be a warm enough anyway.

Knowing more now about Chris Seaton than I ever did, ironic that this comment got downvoted. Chances are good he knew more about cold, wet, and moving than the vast majority of people on HN.

Gortex works amazing for snowboarding bibs. You do quite a bit of moving in those. You dont need to wrap your entire body in it for it to be effective.

My gortex snowboard jacket has side vents that work great when you need to cool off a bit.

In my experience mountain biking in central Europe, where most of the summer is dry and not so hot, and the rest of the year is damp and cool, Gore-Tex products work really well in keeping you dry when the outisde air is very humid.

I regularly use a gilet and a full sweater, these work amazingly well and are worth the price.

Besides the breathability, construction is top level for sports gear.

Gore-TEX is great for shoes and gloves in the winter (near or below freezing temperatures).

It never occurred to me to get a jacket made out of it.