Comment by erinnh | Hacker News Reader

Comment by erinnh | Hacker News Reader

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That might be true in the EU, I have no idea. But not in Germany. An employee cannot choose to work longer than that.

I still was slightly wrong. The average work hours cannot exceed 48 hours a week.

But an employee is not allowed to work more than that.

And it very definitely is fraud. It’s called Arbeitszeitbetrug, the „Betrug“ in that word is fraud.

Source: (in German) https://www.nebenjob.de/ratgeber/3164-maximale-arbeitszeit-w...

Ill translate the relevant part for you (you can use DeepL or something if you want to crosscheck):

"Für Arbeitnehmer mit Hauptjob und Nebenjob gelten diese Arbeitszeiten

- Man darf in der Regel maximal 48 Stunden die Woche arbeiten.

- Wenn man (zeitweilig) die Stunden pro Tag erhöht, ist eine wöchentliche Arbeitszeit von bis zu 60 Stunden möglich, wenn innerhalb eines halben Jahres die Wochenarbeitszeit auf durchschnittlich 48 Stunden ausgeglichen wird."

Translation: The following working hours are relevant for employees with main and sidejob:

- You are only allowed to work maximum 48 hours per week on average

- If one decides (temporarily) to increase the time worked per day, a maximum 60 hours per week is possible, as long as the average worked hours stay at 48 hours per week in a 6 month timeframe.

And source for Arbeitszeitbetrug being fraud:

https://beratung.de/recht/ratgeber/arbeitszeitbetrug-definit...

I can't interpret German legal documents correctly so I'll take your word. Note that this isn't an employee protection as it places a severe limit on your rights. It is strange this hasn't been challenged based upon the fact it contravenes Article 23(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically "free choice of employment".

That's not to say you are wrong but if working too much means you get a fine I don't think I'll ever want to work in that country. I would go so far as to say that's way worse than the limited laws in the US.

I would note here that the overemployeed here is generally not work 100+ hours but working two full time jobs in 40-50 hours so they well could manage to be within that work time law.

Here is a more appropriate discussion about overemployment in Germany without fraud being mentioned at all as it wouldn't be fraud if you stick to the 48 hours:

https://www.mondaq.com/germany/employee-rights-labour-relati...

So I don't this the OP would be at risk of fraud at all in Germany. They would be at risk of being fired as they are working two jobs.

These kind of laws are called „Schutzgesetze“. Protection laws. Where individual rights are limited to protect individuals from what lawmakers perceive as negative effects.

You are definitely free to your opinion on this. It’s a social difference. I wouldn’t want to have it differently. Otherwise employers tend to force employees to work more than that time „by choice“. (Read: force by peer pressure etc)

The problem with the second part is that contracts have hours you need to work noted in them. If you have one contract for 40 hours and another for 8 per week, without telling either employer about this, you’re likely not committing fraud. Just fireable offices due to the contract disputes you mentioned.

But if you have two 40 hour contracts, either you will have to work 80 hours a week (the lesser offense, and in reality „wo kein Kläger da kein Richter“. German Idiom for „where there’s nobody to sue, there is no justice (to rule on this)“ ) or commit fraud by not working the 40 hours for at least one employer. (I’m talking about Arbeitszeitbetrug here) (Betrug = fraud)

The issue is, generally people in these kind of stories always work less than they should. I’d be majorly annoyed if a colleague fucked me over because he was working a second job at the same time.

Personally, my code of ethics is pretty simple. Be fair. That means I expect my employer to be fair to me, and I will be fair to my employer. So this whole overemployment thing rubs me the wrong way, just as an employer forcing people to do overtime would.

To be 100% clear. I have nothing against sidegigs. Those are also semi-common in Germany. But you should be open with your employer about it and not fuck over your colleagues by scheduling work for both at the same time. As for your link. They’re talking about the employer side and how to deal with sidegigs. All relevant from what I saw. They didn’t touch on what to do if an employer is lying about his hours worked, unless I missed it. They are very much correct with the part about being a freelancer being a possible „workaround“. Freelancers aren’t bound to the work time issues, as they aren’t employees. Being a freelancer is more complicated than in the USA though, from what I understand.

As a general point, in Germany working multiple jobs is less common than in the USA, at least from what I can gather from US social media. So that might explain one of the disconnects we are having here.

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