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Comment by jfghi | Hacker News Reader

Do these plants not require tons of water?

Arizona has the reputation of being a desert, but in reality it is a state that is half-desert and half-mountain, and has a tons of water. Enough to waste on ubiquitous golf courses and alfalfa farms. There is a canal system taking the water from the mountains to the drier south where people live.

But the population pressures are realigning who pays what for the water now, so I expect the alfalfa farms are going to go, and chip fabs will take their place.

The thing you don't mention is that Arizona is wasting other people's water -- nearly 40% is sourced from rivers originating in other mountainous states

https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts

I don't mention it because it's not true. The idea that if a river originates in one state, then that state owns all the water from the river is not how ownership of river water works. And in America, rivers often form the border of states, so there are always competing claims about which state gets which percentage of the river. These are generally settled through treaties and agreements among states, and those agreements were made also for the Colorado river. Arizona is only taking its share of the water as per the treaty, not someone else's share.

And it's share of water was already insufficient a decade ago, which is why the water table has run dry in many rural areas, forcing people to truck in bottled water or pack up and leave.

Do you mean the Colorado River? The one that flows through the Grand Canyon? The canyon in Arizona?

Yes, the Colorado River whose headwaters comes from the state of Colorado.

That's kind of a ridiculous way to claim "ownership" of water. Especially water that naturally flows into the state.

"Has tons of water"? LOL It is 5 years from rationing. Vegas solved their problem 20 years ago, things in AZ have gotten 10x worse.

> Arizona has the reputation of being a desert, but in reality it is a state that is half-desert and half-mountain, and has a tons of water.

The mountainous areas are 'high deserts'. Most of Arizona's water is underground. It's being pumped out faster than it's replaced. Old wells go dry all the time, because newer wells are deeper.

"The Sonoran Desert's bi-seasonal rainfall pattern results in more plant species than any other desert in the world. The Sonoran Desert includes plant genera and species from the agave family, palm family, cactus family, legume family, and numerous others." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoran_Desert#Flora

> There is a canal system taking the water from the mountains to the drier south where people live.

The Central Arizona Project pumps water straight east from Lake Havasu (738 ft elevation) to Phoenix (1086 ft elevation), then south to Tucson (2388 ft elevation).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Arizona_Project / https://www.cap-az.com/water/cap-system/water-operations/sys...

The Salt River Project [SRP] buffers water from the rivers that run through the Phoenix area, and diverts the rivers into canals for delivery to the Phoenix area. Before the dams, the Salt and Verde rivers ran year-round. SRP modernized/expanded the Hohokam's ancient canals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_River_Project#History

This may not be true today. But when I first arrived in US in AZ, I was told Phoenix boasts highest numbers of golf club concentration in entire US, despite high water requirements of a golf club and being in middle of desert.

I suspect the ongoing Western US drought would have worsened the water situation.

from the wikipedia link - they use sewage/greywater for cooling:

> The power plant evaporates the water from the treated sewage from several nearby cities and towns to provide the cooling of the steam that it produces.

This treated sewage is the water that Vegas now provides for general use, and what AZ will need just for its people in about 5 years. Wasting it on chip production is going to go over slightly better than the Saudis wasting groundwater on alfalfa.

They could literally truck Evian water in if they wanted to. Water is extremely cheap compared to just about every substance on earth, and it’s hard to imagine that water costs can be a problem for this type of operation.

You're assuming that the severe undervaluing of natural resources in the US will simply continue. Try taking a field trip to a place (including the US), where people can't drink the water that comes out of their tap, and you'll get a better idea of where this leads. In no universe can TSMC use bottled water, much less Evian, and be competitive.

> Do these plants not require tons of water?

If you’re referring to the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating Station, it’s downstream of water treatment plants and is effectively evaporating the water from the effluent stream [1], in other words it’s cooled by 100% recycled water. Probably a significant amount of the evaporated water returns to the local area.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_...

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