Why did so many US men quit working? Social status may hold the key, study says
bloomberg.com
bloomberg.com
If you stand in San Antonio, Texas, surrounded by shuttered shopping malls and half-built-and-now-abandoned projects, it's incredibly hard not to be cynical about the future. Sit in the cafeteria of Stripe HQ and it's incredibly hard not to be optimistic. No mystery why the political beliefs of both places match the on-the-ground reality.
The greatest threat to a stable society isn't economic collapse - it's the collapse that follows: the collapse of a belief that things can get better. The exact second you don't think things can get better, the entire game changes, and there is no reason to do anything other than help tear down the system that left you so hopeless in the first place.
It's not that we pay so little that people can't make ends meet. It's that life costs so much, and can be so good, that people can't make dreams meet.
The specifics of this claim are peculiar. San Antonio has one of the hottest (read: high-priced) housing markets on Earth, due to chronic underbuilding. If there are unfinished housing construction projects in that city, it's likely they are waiting for supplies, not abandoned due to economics.
Likewise, economic collapse is caused by the collapse of belief that things can get better, which destroys the shared beliefs underpinning the economy. Economies can be repaired as long as people believe the economy is worth repairing.
I would venture a guess that the optimism of engineers eating in Stripe's cafeteria is different than the optimism of the cafeteria workers. The former likely have a string of positive past experiences to fuel their hope to even get where they are (promotions, raises, etc). The latter probably hope to do something else, but have failed and/or given up on trying due to failure.
> It's not that we pay so little that people can't make ends meet. It's that life costs so much, and can be so good, that people can't make dreams meet.
I think they're expectations more than dreams. Their parents owned a house, so they expected to but can't. Their parents went on vacation once a year, but they can't. After a certain number of failed expectations, they just assume the rest of their expectations are void, so why bother? Meanwhile they watch the more successful people's expectations grow; those people don't just want a raise to offset inflation, they want their income to grow. They want to vacation internationally instead of domestically.
The loss of a dream certainly sucks, but the loss of something that was "promised" to you as a child hurts so much more. If you give up on all of those promises, you no longer have to feel the hurt of being denied them.
For Americans, vacationing internationally is cheaper than domestic travel, as long as you do it cheaply. To vacation in America, hotel rooms cost an absolute fortune now, eating out costs a fortune (plus the 25% tips now expected), and you need a rental car to go just about anywhere, and those cost a fortune now too (and if you get it from Hertz, you might get arrested).
Instead, you can buy airfare to Europe: eating out is much cheaper, hotel rooms can be had for far, far less money in most places (just don't go to the American-style hotels), and you don't need a car since you can just take public transit for cheap. Plus there's far more interesting stuff to do in cities in Europe; in America, it's all the same boring chain stores everywhere and there's no culture outside of places like NYC (which are horribly expensive to vacation in, even by American standards).
The only way to vacation cheaply in America is basically to go camping in a national forest for 2 weeks, though this still doesn't get around the need for a rental car unless you can get a ride somehow.
Europeans aren't going to visit Kansas City or Dallas or Cincinnati.
From context, *obviously* I meant someone vacationing in America, not a resident.
>Its possible to travel all over USA in a car that cost very little
No, it's not. You can't buy some car for 2 weeks and then return it.
>however, not sure how you'd insure it without US driving license or address.
You don't. So why are you even bringing up this inanity? We're talking about vacationing here.
So if your suggestion for buying a car relies on illegal acts, that's a stupid suggestion and a stupid idea.
San Francisco is a good example? Statement doesn't even really make sense in the first place.
The best part is society's typical response cry "Man up, what a loser" -- More likely to bury a man than get him to rise.
It's just an anchor point that stuck in my mind. The traditions of the nuclear family and religion in the US have been declining, and the '50s are often mentioned as an inflection point.
There are many good reasons (for example, no longer being bound to toxic spouses/family members) it has been declining. Not coincidentally, many social and emotional skills are declining along with them.
It takes a lot of work and skills to get along with people, esp. ones who are unpleasant to you, or keep connections with many acquaintances.
The only social/emotional skills I learned in school were how to follow directions and not be a nuisance.
There's no standalone emotions class. It's stuff like teaching kids to say thank you, take the time to think before giving into a knee jerk reaction, consider positive and negative consequences of each choice, recognizing triggers for anger, imagine walking in other people's shoes for a day, making plans instead of ignoring a problem or deadline in hopes it will go away, etc.
"Character education" is suppose to be part of every class, analogous to "writing across the curriculum" and teaching critical thinking. Yes there is overlap with just making kids easier to handle and push through the pipeline.
Hedonism, including sexual hedonism, fades eventually, even for those with access to it.
If 40% of men are involuntarily childless and single, you should exepect a similar percentage to withdraw from the workplace by the age of 50 or so.
The message from the media is constantly antimale. Even James Cameron called testosterone evil. Remember " killallmen" on Twitter. Remember the force is female?
All the messaging and propaganda has consequences.
Some examples of the net not being representative of the majority: if you asked the internet if Trump was going to win presidency, or if Britain would leave the EU, the resounding opinion was absolutely not.
I'm extremely critical of the feminists who pushed #killallmen, that was one of the major things that pushed my brother to kill himself.
There is an extreme power imbalance going on, and I suspect a vast amount of average men have noticed and are checking out. Who knows what messages little boys are unconsciously or consciously receiving. I've been a accused of being a helicopter or tiger mother, just because I'm keeping very tight control of media my son watches.
There ate really nasty messages in social sent to men. Nothing gives people the right to say killallmen. On social media women say men under six feet should kill themselves. Famous women celebrities say men are worthless.
Two wrongs don't make a right!
Force women out of the work force?
Among adult men (20 years and older) in the largest race and ethnicity groups (White, Black, Asian and Hispanic), Hispanics were more likely to engage in labor force activity than were the other groups, with a participation rate of 79.1 percent, and Blacks were the least likely, with a rate of 65.6 percent. The labor force participation rate for Asian adult men (74.0 percent) was higher than the rate for White adult men (70.3 percent)
I am being facetious, but any explanation of racism needs to also explain why Asians seem to avoid being victims of racism in the US across a wide variety of metrics. Disclaimer: white NZer, in a mostly white area, so I really am ignorant of the deeper issues.
My understanding is that many first-generation Asian immigrants in the US immigrate to the US through visa programs, which tend to select for highly motivated, educated people. This in turn leads to their children having better outcomes, including financial ones.
People who are generally better off financially tend to live in nicer areas, and those nicer areas are less policed. This tends to lead to a change of perception of a given group of people -- most Asian people they know are smart and well off, so they use that as a heuristic.
Many black people in the US are descendants of slaves who were brought to the US against their will and had very little access to property, leading to generational poverty. Poorer areas are generally policed more aggressively, leading to more crime being prosecuted, and thus a heuristic is built that leads to even more aggressive policing (eg. stop and frisk in NYC was very racist as a result).
I don't think there are any innate qualities that Asian people have that black people don't that would lead to Asian privilege, and the two groups face racism in different ways across the US. Asian people are victims of racism in different ways even if they generally aren't as targeted in policing.
Recommend reading more about the model minority concept as well, as from what I've seen from my Asian friends and loved ones, is a concept that places a lot of pressure on them. Holding up Asian people as an example of a minority that does really well or is expected to do really well can mitigate their own accomplishments.
About 30% of the New Zealand population is fairly recent immigrants, also usually with quite strict visa selection criteria, so there is a somewhat similar dynamic here.
Fifty per cent of the New Zealand prison population is Maori, even though they make up 15 per cent of the population, so there are parallels there too - their history is horrifying in other ways (especially because they were here first).
I hadn’t heard of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority before - interesting, cheers.
And probably more inclined to stay in the job market when earnings increase or at least stay the same.
Very insightful.
Untreated ADHD is the main thing keeping me out of the workforce. Thank our government's restrictive policies around the diagnosis and medication for that. But its not like I'm sitting around enjoying the high life. My spending is basically poverty level. Most people would find it completely inadequate. No wife/kids so that helps.
I'm not _completely_ unemployed, I have a programming contract but I barely bill any hours. Also 10-15% of my time is spent providing what I call "social support" for my aging parents.
Quite to the contrary I don't think ADHD diagnoses/prescriptions have ever been easier. They literally have online pill mills that will get you an ADHD diagnosis and an Adderall prescription within a week.
I went the more traditional route with an actual psychiatrist office, but after the initial appointments and testing, I just have one appointment every 3 months with my psychiatrist which basically amounts to "hey is everything still going alright" "yup life is good" and they write me the scrip for the next 3 months. It's literally a 10 minute televisit most of the time unless we get sidetracked talking about some tangent like we do occasionally.
I've contemplated this before. I ask my self, is the effort of going to a job for 40+ hours a week and dealing with that stress worth it if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)? The asinine housing and rental markets and difficulties finding a mate are really the two driving forces I see that would drive men to quit playing the game.
I'm not female, so I can only offer limited insight here, but what I've observed with single women over 40 is that they basically don't need men, though many of them lament that they didn't get to have children, and many even keep talking about having some up until about 50, which seems to be the point they usually give up. However, aside from that, they seem to have healthier social lives than single men in the same age group: they're much better about cultivating friendships (normally with other women, but not always) and pursuing extracurricular interests. At some point, they realize that finding a partner is actually not in their best interest, because if you're a 50 year old woman, it's likely only 55+ and usually 60+ men will be interested in dating you, and for a woman that means a guy who's probably very conservative (likely a Trumper), which doesn't appeal to as many women, and worse than that, a guy who she's basically going to have to take care of pretty soon since he'll be older and likely in poor health. So it's really not worth it unless he's got one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel and has a lot of financial assets that she stands to inherit in exchange for becoming his caregiver for an indeterminate amount of time. So what I've seen is basically a lot of women also opting out of families and marriage (by not settling), and leading individualistic lives with their female friend groups, enjoying their independence, traveling, etc.
>if it's not enabling me to do what I want (buy a house, raise a family...you know standard human things)?
I think, pretty soon, "raising a family" isn't going to be considered a "standard human thing". The current situation is simply unsustainable: not enough people are having kids to keep the population level stable and keep the economy going. So something is going to have to change, in a big way. I predict the society of "Brave New World" is going to become the norm, where the government mostly handles procreation and child-raising.
The obvious, simple answer is that unskilled laborers or people with skills not valued or people aging out of physical jobs have three paths: be supported by a partner, get on disability, or work off the books.
The plethora of gig economy jobs makes it much easier to work and avoid taxes or formal works arrangements. People even sub out DoorDash jobs, etc. Faced with the prospect of making $20/hr in a warehouse or as a retail manager, you can make more money with casual labor.
Also remember that with the big crackdowns on migrant labor, there’s big gaps in the labor force. If you get laid off from a retail job, you go get some roofing gigs and collect unemployment for awhile.
Dropping out of the statistical labor force is as easy as resigning, not filing for unemployment, and not using any government job search systems.
I kind of have to laugh at the idea that that is how they measure the labor force. I often amuse myself of the shenanigans that would ensue if everyone coordinated a drop out at the same time. Be much like a bank run I suppose. I'd guess Capital would construe it as a coordinated strike and go after Congress to do something damnit. Imagining the outcomes of carefully cobbled together, yet fairly daft societal control metrics unravel is one of my precious few remaining sources of entertainment.
None of these options sound very savory. While technically possible, there is zero security, constant depression and if you are leeching off someone (probably also pretty broke), you're one fight away from being homeless.
"good"
A better question to ask: How all these people refusing to work are paying their bills?
There is no long term thinking here, no optimism for future. I do not think this leads to a healthy society. But the point is that they do not have a lot of bills to pay and they do not care about the remaining.
I think the answer is obvious. They don't. I guess you've never been poor.
- Boomers are dying and their highly inflated real estate assets are getting transferred to their children. Imagine one day waking up from your Walmart cashier job and having $$2.5M house on your name.
- Many people invested in stock market and got out just in time to have double or quadruple their money. Many of them went to $1M-3M in cash and now happily living ever after financially free in cheap places.
- Many people have got addicted to buy-now-pay-later and they haven't came off yet.
- Ton of people moved to gig economy, driving taxies and delivering goods. They are hard to account as "employed" but leave a huge hole in available labor force for traditional employers.
At my age, one of my parents knew how to work a spreadsheet and that was enough to life in the city in a nice apartment, two cars and a social life, then a baby and a house. I need an internship or 3-5 years experience to get hired for a job with longer hours than he had, that will pay enough for maybe a third of the material life I described above.
To all those that posted its this or that, go and educate yourself rather than armchair spectate. Do something like read the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith (1778).
The reasons behind the behavior being seen are not new, its happened before, many times.
Every time the price of wages goes below what is necessary to provide for the future, people will quit and will stop producing.
It is not worth their time which would be better spent producing things like food for themselves, and if you can't even do that you get people that don't work, and just lay down, Bai Lan style.
Its not new, and its a common and recurring problem found in socialist systems of every kind historically.
If you think the US is a capitalist system, you haven't been paying attention to the changes which were made by your elected leaders over the past 50 years.
If you think otherwise, you are lying to yourself, and doing the same to anyone else that listens to you. Do you think its doing good teaching and manipulating someone to believe something you should reasonably know is false and provide them fake tools to ensure they will never solve issues?
Most people can't even properly discuss these problems in large part due to indoctrination early in life. They are unwilling to learn or to think. These people have driven us to the point where now engaging in any kind of divisive discussion is preventing any kind of solution from being addressed.
You are either a part of the solution or are part of the problem. There are more people part of the problem than the solution.
The people who are engaging in manipulation and deceit to the detriment of all, are not good people. They are engaging in great acts of evil and should be brought to account for those evil acts. Karma has a way of getting to those people eventually.
A perfect example, we have known about the perils of climate change for quite a long time now. David Landis documented how the tropical climates make the environment adverse for human life. Parasites, bacteria, inability to create food through animal husbandry.
In the 90s we had credible research showing climate change was happening, Oil companies went the route of big tobacco and the bureau of tobacco studies, creating and funding false research to fit their narrative. They were not punished, and if you were one of those stupid people to fall for, it shame on you.
There is now no doubt its happening, many would argue its too late to act now, and we have a hot-box scenario rapidly developing. Who was the most responsible? The vast majority of people that did nothing or distracted from the problem. Who were so completely oblivious, uneducated, and unthinking, that now everyone has to face the consequences.
Edit: For the people downvoting trying to manipulate, apparently this hit too close to home. You'll roast in hell or pay a high karmic price for your actions eventually.
You might need to question your own position more, examining your sources for propaganda.
I downvoted you, not because I'm trying to manipulate the conversation. I downvoted you for telling everyone who disagrees with you that they're stupid and brainwashed. That's not OK, even if your overall position is correct.
No, that's a fallacy you just put forward. Its flawed logic.
> You might need to question your own position more...
I question my position regularly, consistently, and with great vigor, and its stood the test of time with a rock solid foundation.
Being very serious here, I have to ask, do you even know what propaganda is? or is it just some nebulous concept?
Do you know how to concretely recognize it? Do you know what its used for, how and why it works, and the outcomes it causes?
If you can't answer all of those questions in detail, and weren't taught it in school (almost all US public education students weren't), you were taught other things implicitly that you may not even realize or question, and that and its outcomes would fall under ideological indoctrination.
It's not brainwashing like the movies, its far far worse and very subtle.
Here's a project for you, read a book called Influence by Cialdini. It covers the most common psychological blindspots people have (as adults), there are more with children and everyone has them. Be aware that book covers some dark topics but it shows certain areas you need to pay attention to more than others, and you should build an unconscious associative response of critical thinking/alarm when you recognize any one of those being used.
After you have a handle on that subject material, go back and review the material you were forced to cover as a child. Remember details of how it was taught, did they cover the material very quickly, or was it agonizingly slow with the time spent over-allocated for specific material. If you recall, boredom and sitting still as a child are some of the worst forms of suffering they experience today.
Focus your efforts on material taught prior to the age of reason (Age 12). Corroborate what was taught in those books with other historic accounts written by historians, it is not enough to just look at the text itself, you also need to look at the implication the author is making, in whole and by part (they should be the same because children tend to read sentences one at a time). Assume what the author is saying is not true and go prove its true from sources used by historians. If you do this, you will find a consistent pattern that you never realized.
What I describe, is far worse than not OK because that's a direct attack on thought at a time when you didn't have the development or faculties to discern otherwise, and it translates directly into communication and agency.
The most common use of propaganda is in subversion.
The overall goal being to either drain, limit, or remove resources necessary to think, react, or take action. This can be caused by eliciting certain psychological states/responses or through other means such as corruption of cultural/personal/religious/national identity, and/or to indoctrinate others to do the same, its immaterial if they know they are doing it or not. Its about outcomes, and if there is no significant amount of unity, there will be no organized response, and the outcome will be a stall out without responsive action, until the number of people pushing for something outweigh the people in opposition with others unreactive (i.e. a small minority chooses and incites). Its the same fundamental mechanic for the fall of Rome with relation to the Demagogues.
I would suggest you take another closer examination of what capitalism is and what it isn't, more specifically what the primary elements of such a system would have that are not part of other systems (i.e. socialism).
To have any meaningful communication, you have to be talking about the same thing, and you do that by properly characterizing whatever you are examining. You haven't done this.
You have made statements that match existing socialist systems, and then communicated that its capitalism, when it clearly is not. You have a direct contradiction.
It appears, you have confounded, generalized concepts of banking and trading with capitalism.
All capitalistic systems have had trading and banking (that I am aware of), not all collections of trading and banking systems are capitalism.
Socialism/communism have those same elements, and there are important differences, they are not the same.
The second problem you are running into is this, people practice deceit, sometimes without even knowing what they are doing. When practicing deceit, you take part of a truth and then you weave it into a lie because that is when it becomes most convincing to others who may not know about it.
In essence in that act it is an act of corrupting something, calling a small piece of the whole, the same as the whole, and yet its often only a small part that doesn't stand on its own, and when its communicated, used, or taught for any purpose, that may potentially lead to loss at some future date, the act becomes one of the greater evils of the world.
That is why it is so important to properly educate oneself, and to properly communicate. So you don't unknowingly commit great evils on others.
There are many people in this world that do this with intention, malice, and an overall malevolence.