Comment by josephg | Hacker News Reader

Comment by josephg | Hacker News Reader

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> You should give a concrete example

This isn't a perfect example, but -

I was at a personal development workshop a couple of weeks ago.

One of the participants was expressing a lot of fake positivity. I (and a lot of the other participants) got a bit annoyed by that - it felt to us like he was lying every time he opened his mouth. At dinner he asked for "honest feedback" on why other people didn't like him, and what he could do to be more appreciated by the group. He got what he asked for. Several people told him how they felt when he talked. He got really upset hearing that - saying he was being bullied by the whole group. Something he's experienced a lot of throughout his life.

How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack? I don't know if you can. The shadow part of him is too clever. Should we have refused to give him the feedback he asked for? The same pattern played out in small ways a few more times over the next few days. Someone would say something in the group which related to him in some way. The next morning he'd try on a versions of the previous day's events in which everyone else's stories were about him. And he was always the victim.

In a work setting where people don't have complete information, he'd be a menace. He could turn anything he didn't like into an instance of "bullying and harassment". I don't think he does it on purpose, but that doesn't make it any better.

Even weeks after the retreat I'm still thinking about him - I have no idea how I'd deal with someone like that if they were in my life. A soft "believe all victims of harassment" approach would encourage his narcissism. But his pain still seemed real. It felt like I kept having to choose between self abandonment (staying small, lying about my feelings) or risking hurting this guy. I hated it.

> How can you be honest with someone like this without him being able to turn it into an attack?

The solution is gray manning. Don't react to peoples emotional swings, controversial statements, and throw everything they say to the wind but the nuts and bolts. You don't know this person, you don't need to like them, you just need to exist with them for a bit.

Some people from the corporate world I like and become friends; everyone else gets a git clone --depth 1 when I'm around them.

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There are a lot of plausible explanations for his behavior. In some he's a bonafide victim, in others he could have a personality disorder. To you, as a transient existence in his reality and vice versa, none of those matter.

What is gray manning?

I think it's more commonly known as "gray rocking", ie. pretend to be a gray rock.

Don't make eye contact, don't smile or frown, don't show any emotional reaction, reply in the most minimal, factual, emotionless manner possible.

In a work setting it’s crucial not to hire such people in the first place. And if you mistakenly did, to remove them asap.

Genuine question, where does that leave them as far as earning a living?

That's interesting. He "got what he asked for", eh? How was the feedback delivered? Did you guys give him neutral feedback without applying judgement to how he was acting? I'm guessing not. Sometimes people are asking for something other than what their literal words mean. (I'm not saying you and/or the group did anything wrong, just wondering how it all went down, guessing it wasn't the most generous delivery haha)

I've known people who have been interpreted exactly that way -- they seem "fake" in their positivity, when in fact they are just naive or clueless about how an endless barrage of overly-kind sentiments will be taken. I've watched it unfold over years, and see people continuously (and incorrectly) interpret this person as "just trying to get people to like [them]". Also, this is a not-uncommon criticism of autistic people - many get the feedback that they seem totally insincere and even sarcastic when they are being totally genuine. Another thing I've seen play out tons of times.

He honestly probably shouldn't have even asked for such personal feedback, because that wasn't really the environment to ask such a personal and potentially-risky question, but further, I wouldn't have even answered him (though I can't tell without having been there and seen the whole day unfold, etc.) ...

You can definitely be honest with someone without it being an attack, but it can be an art form. It can be really hard to share feedback with sensitive people who are extremely prone to taking things personally. IMO if you don't feel you have expert-level abilities here, don't even bother engaging with a person like that in that way, it's just going to end badly. There's a reason I'm super sincere and frank with some coworkers, and gloss over (or straight-up avoid) that stuff with others. I have a sense of who can approach it with maturity and who won't. With some people, it's basically a "trap", even if they don't consciously intend to be that way. Everyone has had their own journey up to the point you meet them, and sometimes that journey has been perilous and full of harm to their psyche.

Your first paragraph seems to hint this group of people should have done even more than they did: not sharing their opinion until explicitly asked. Implying that they may ought to have given the feedback with even more sensitivity is exactly the problem, it’s asking too much of the frank/sincere/mature person who to placate an adult with an unhealthy perspective of their life.

I’m not sure I explained my point very clearly, but what I mean is essentially: how far must we be expected to go to anticipate and maneuver around such sensitive souls?

Edit: rereading your comment, I think I didn’t respond to a key area of confusion / disagreement. Being “fake” versus “being naive or clueless”. Giving feedback that someone comes across as fake could mean that they seem dishonest, but I don’t think that’s the obvious interpretation in a situation like this. Being overly positive might seem fake on account of naivety or cluelessness. Any of these - naïveté, cluelessness, or dishonesty in communication - are all things that a professional should be corrected on when appropriate (like asking for honest feedback).

That guy just sounds crazy and not at peace with himself.

Also in my original comment, I wasn't trying to make a universal claim about communication in general. If I was dealing with the above person, I'd likely just not respond and avoid them for the rest of the workshop (because bad vibes). But if I absolutely HAD to respond to that kind of person, I would sure as fuck lie to their face just to get them to fuck off

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