A college student made an app to detect AI-written text
npr.org
npr.org
If you think of ChatGPT as a fancy calculator, you can just apply the same techniques we've been using for a while: tell students not to use them on homework, make homework only a small % of the grade, and rely on in-class, paper only exams for most the grade.
I think we make kids hate school via "sucking it up" when we really don't have to. Learning to write in the right context is much more effective than learning in the wrong context. But our educational system is so standardize that we have to fit most kids into the same interest peg.
These days, that would be considered insane! But in 1989...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itzhak_Perlman#/media/File:Itz...
If we habitually do hard things, then we generally have no problem, stepping up to the plate, for when it’s showtime.
Same reason that musicians practice scales, all the time.
I write code, every day. I walk 5K, every day. I solve problems, every day (detect a pattern, here?). It makes showtime a lot less stressful, and folks seem happy with my work.
First thing I do, is a 5K brisk walk. Gets the exercise quota satisfied. I tried running, but kept injuring myself, so walking, it is. I can do that, seven days a week. Takes a bit less than an hour (I walk about 10min/Km).
I usually "triage" my day, on these walks. I mentally sort through the tasks ahead, and scope out my plans. Sometimes, it's straightforward, other times, I have to develop a plan.
When I get home, I hit the shower, and generally start coding, right away. I code throughout the day, taking breaks as I need/want. I have no issue, stopping work for a couple of hours, and watching some TV or even taking a short nap.
I'll code at any time. I don't have a "set" workday.
I have found that I am most productive in the morning, and most creative at night, but I sometimes find myself losing focus, towards the end of the day. When that happens, I generally wrap things up, as I do more damage than good. I'll often fix a bug in my head during my walk, that was confounding me the night before.
I believe in F^3 - Finite, Focused, and Finished.
- Finite: I know what "done" looks like. Tasks have a discrete beginning and end, though the schedule may be fuzzy.
- Focused: No distractions. I stay on beam, and devote full attention to the task at hand.
- Finished: I don't stop, until I have reached a point that I can wrap things. I usually punctuate this with a final tagged commit.
It's also important to scope things reasonably. Stretch, but not too much.
I write about that stuff here: https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/thats-not-what-ships...
I probably have a life a lot of folks around here would not find attractive. I find it WFM. YMMV.
Similarly, this is why we students have been required to cite sources instead of simply rendering an opinion on a topic. Most of these AI bots are just fancy plagiarism machines.
An acquaintance who works in the NLP space says this is done in post processing, where GPT probably hallucinates a reference but they run a web query or something to try to fix it up.
> find appropriate sources and cite them later
Edit: by Escape Room, I mean like the fun kind you would go to with friends or colleagues. I'm not saying we should torture children... Google if you haven't heard of one.
But you can fool it by first asking chatGPT if it can write in the style of some known author, letting it output an example, then asking it to write about a given topic in the same style.
Here's generic output to "write a one paragraph description of Genghis Khan". The Hugging Face output detector says it's 99.98% likely to be fake (from GPT):
> Genghis Khan was a Mongolian warrior and ruler who founded the Mongol Empire, one of the largest empires in history. He is credited with uniting the nomadic Mongol tribes and establishing a powerful and efficient military force that conquered much of Asia and Europe in the 13th century. Genghis Khan is known for his strict code of law and his innovative use of cavalry and military strategy. He is also remembered for his brutal treatment of conquered peoples, as he and his armies were responsible for the deaths of millions of people during their conquests.
But this response, in the style of Charles Bukowski, gets a 98.66% real (not GPT) rating by the checker:
> Genghis Khan was a man of fire and fury, a conqueror who swept across the land like a storm. His armies were vast and unstoppable, crushing all who opposed him beneath their hooves. He was a man of vision and determination, who united the scattered tribes of the steppes and forged them into a mighty nation. But he was also a man of blood and death, who left a trail of destruction in his wake. Villages were burned and pillaged, their inhabitants slaughtered or taken as slaves. The world trembled at the mention of his name, and even the greatest kings and emperors bowed before him in fear. Such was the power of Genghis Khan, the greatest warrior the world had ever known.
But wow, the second response was pretty exciting. I wonder if chatgpt can get present-day authors to up their game?
By the way, here's the response to "can you write in the style of Charles Bukowski?" (the first prompt in the session):
> Sure! Here's a little something I came up with: "I woke up this morning with a hangover and a broken heart. The bottle was empty, just like my bank account. Love had come and gone, leaving nothing but pain and regret in its wake. I stumbled out of bed and into the shower, hoping the water would wash away the memories of her. But as I stood there, staring at the peeling paint and the mildew on the walls, I knew that the only thing that would cure me was time and more whisky. So I dressed myself in my finest rags and headed out into the city, searching for the next fix, the next distraction, the next moment of fleeting pleasure that would take me away from the pain. Because in the end, that's all we really have: the present moment and the hope that tomorrow will be better, or at least no worse than today."
Within the context, this is a ambiguous in a way that would be unrealistic, like a bit of a micro-Chekhov's gun.
A good idea superficially, but ultimately solves the wrong problem.
As I'm sure many of us did, I tested out the app here on GPT-3 output. Unmodified, it detected it was GPT-3. Great! However, I added about 10 additional words to the output provided by GPT-3, and it shot up my "human" score by like 60 points, and determined it was human-generated.
This is going to be the problem underscoring _any_ model that is trying to identify "AI" generated text. A human can modify it slightly, or subtract words, and it throws the entire thing off. There are other paths that we need to explore to this problem.
In all seriousness though, this is really a cat and mouse game. Working in CV I might be biased to think that images are going to be easier to detect than text, but we are going to get better. I'm not saying we shouldn't create detectors (we should), but I think we also need to be aware that this is a cat and mouse game and we need to have true social conversations about this. Though we still fail to have these conversations when it comes to computer security so maybe we're doomed (or maybe this will be the catalyst). It's also important to note that a lot of damage can be done even with images and text that are easy to detect as fake. I've seen plenty of fake Twitter and Linkedin accounts that use StyleGAN profile pictures (with all the telltale signs).
I'm curious what kind of model you're using? How interpretable is it?
Then is it a problem if a human slightly modified an AI's work? Isn't that the desirable outcome? And if the work itself is so useless that it would be worthy of a zero grade, then perhaps another way of measuring usefulness should be used.
In a way, I feel like we can't impose old-world grading techniques to new-world content synthesis technologies.
I have no regrets about that.
I wanted to learn math, science, and engineering. I didn't want a degree, I wanted to learn the stuff. What was the point of cheating? I've derived a lifetime of pleasure from knowing that stuff.
I don't understand wanting a liberal arts degree and then cheating to get it.
Employers know about the cheaters, fakers, frauds, and charlatans. The job screening tests are an attempt to screen them out. Nobody wants to hire cheaters.
But the expected value of that choice is positive (for the person making it), as evidenced by the people making it routinely.
I get you don’t like that, but that’s the reality of US labor market, where useless credentialism has crept in:
Many people get degrees they don’t want for jobs that don’t need them to check a box and get hired - because as a society, we’ve built that into our hiring.
Particularly liberal arts degrees.
Heck, as scandals have revealed, they frequently become corporate CEOs or get elected to high office.
Writing was easier than studying for me.
For this reason, outside of my math & science majors, I chose exclusively courses where the grade was based on written work.
But likewise, I wasn't in college to get an empty credential. I already had a marketable skill -- programming. Learning was fun, but I was also conscious of the fact that I didn't want to waste my parents' money.
The writing has affected my career: My work involves not necessarily writing papers, but certainly communicating ideas and knowledge to other people, including non-specialists.
As co-founder and CTO of any number of tech companies, I've observed engineers (programmers) with broad humanities (history and language related, mostly) education tend to grok business narratives then architect and write better software: coherent systems expressed concisely. Now I look for history major with comp sci minor, or English and linear algebra, or other self-selected humanities + STEM pairings.
I'd hazard there's some relationship in how the mind is applied in common between domain driven design in service of business narrative and the sweeping cause and effect of history, or between software architecture and well organized long-form writing.
https://www.digitalmars.com/articles/index.html
Consider that the people I know who learned math, science and engineering without going to university hovers around zero. I've also known degree'd engineers who were so hopelessly inept I suspected that they cheated their way through. Their careers didn't go well.
I once knew an MIT graduate who thought a coordinate system conversion matrix was black magic (I wrote it to convert screen graphics to the printer's idea of a page). I was floored. Howinell did he get through MIT?
"Your GPTZero score corresponds to the likelihood of the text being AI generated: 338.59305536714294 Your text is likely human generated!"
ChatGPT wrote that, not me. How do we know we aren't simply reading ChatGPT arguing with itself?
ChatGPT wrote that. But I'll say that this is a lot easier said than done. This will always be an increasingly difficult cat and mouse game.
This might be useful to filter spam from places that initially got bombarded, like stack overflow. I agree with other comments, it's hard to judge the value of this tool without false positive/negative stats. The output isn't completely deterministic though so I wonder how "certain" this tool can be.
There will be paid ChatGPT services for cheating students, the ideal solution would be to rethink and rehaul how student performance is evaluated, but universities will instead pay something like Turnitin because throwing money at a problem is always easier than thinking.
>they hear nothing about it because its no longer their business
how are you so certain that
>students certainly get expelled
?
While these detectors are of course interesting from the hacker/academic points of view, I don't think they will really solve much in practice.
On the one hand, our (teachers') adversary is not ChatGPT. It's ChatGPT + a human, which will be aware of these techniques and can tweak the text to avoid detection.
On the other hand, even if we could detect generated texts with high accuracy, are we going to fail a student just because a black-box AI model says so? Doesn't seem very ethical to me. It's funny how some people worried about ChatGPT's ethical implications seem to be OK with this, just because it goes against their personal demon.
I don't think there is any realistic alternative to just assuming that these systems will be used wherever text is required and you can't physically watch the writer, and living with it.
My guess is that students just have to spend 3-5 hours on a Saturday writing essays, doing programming assignments etc…
Do us a favor and get the COVID vaccines. They're safe and effective!
I like ChatGPT and spend quite a few hours a week working with it; it's a lot more interesting than just a text generator. That said, people using it to do schoolwork for them are short-changing themselves, because they're opting out of developing core cognitive skills.
We already have that, today.
With fantastic tools such as TurnItIn[0], that regularly flags my own work as plagiarizing my own work. And we see with those tools, already, there is a presumption of guilt. The professor will believe the tool over the student, often without the slightest glance to see why said tool is saying the student is guilty.
EDIT: On second thought, one can just put more emphasis on exams taken in-premises with supervision.
It's about maximizing your college admissions chances, which then leads to better jobs.
Id rather be stupid and rich than "educated" and poor.
The greeks had an ideal. It's been so corrupted by the modern system that even the ideal is dead.
I don’t think so? Maybe in some rare edge cases. If you were born to a rich family even with midling grades you will remain rich. If you were born to a poor family even with excelent grades you likely won’t raise above middle class, and that if you are lucky. If you were born into a middle class family and you are lucky enough to avoid catastrophies you will likely stay okay, but not lobster termidor every day rich.
Honestly it is much more likely that if they give you great grades and put the idea into your head that you should be a poet or a philosopher or similar that they send you down the ramen path.
I don’t know where you got this notion.
seems like a pipe dream to me.
The answer is no. A life of material richness vs being poor and highly educated. Ask a postdoc this question and I bet the majority would take lifetime wealth to having to slave away in a lab.
If someone takes the approach that school is required for learning, then they'll stop learning after finishing university (as most people do) and within a decade they'll be stupid compared to someone who believed learning is a personal thing and kept learning after their formal schooling had ended.
First you're projecting your personal experience in your (I guess crap) school in a crap educational system to the norm. It's not.
Second, jobs having higher educational standards is a reflection of the booming of educated youngs, not the other way around.
Third, skilled uneducated professionals (e.g. plumbers, cooks, electricians, mechanics) make much more than graduates on average, it's a night and day difference, comes also debt free and you can start compounding much earlier. If money is your goal an education is actually not necessarily needed if not dangerous.
And no, the stats say that tradespeople are massively underpaid on avg compared to BS holders. Ofc, no one believes this here since HNs demographics are highly clustered in the bay area where trades people basically just tell you how hard you're going to bend over for them...
I'm European, know our school systems in various countries and it has no resemblance to the ideas you have about education and we don't really have such gatekeeping at college at all.
Third, about trades, I've never lived in SF, but I lived in italy/poland/switzerland and even 6 months at OSU in columbus and I've seen that all the time: skilled tradesmen in all these places make MUCH more than average graduate. There's no comparison. I'm 100% sure the average decent carpenter or electrician makes more than a stem graduate in Italy or Switzerland.
Don’t pretend, we will see you ;)
exams will show what you’re really capable of.
lol
And with all of that extra time, I'll study for your "exams".
Just replace chatgpt with Wikipedia, did this for 4 years of uni and another 2 at an ivy n school. No one was the wiser and now I have a cushy MBB job to show for it.
I get my question, research it, provide chatgpt with an outline and ask it to fluf it out in a nice style and maybe copy it down once. Even if I only remember 80% of what I wrote then that is still a win.
I too think that's exactly what's wrong with the education system nowadays - too much homework and not enough time for drugs, Call of Duty, $120 apparel from LuluLemon, browsing TikTok all day in bed, and sending nudes over SnapChat.
Childhood. Solved.
As of my 30s, I can now mostly read warning labels and some of the Spanish manual if I happen to grab the wrong one out of the box. Conversations with a native speaker? No way.
If that wasn’t a complete waste of my time, I don’t know what is.
Presumably, from your point of view, all of the time invested into it was a waste of time, not just the homework part. That said, it doesn't follow from this that any homework is a waste of time. It doesn't even follow that Spanish homework is generally a waste of time.
One cannot generalize from your example at all because you might be an outlier. You'd have to show that learning Spanish provided no value to the majority of kids who studied it, or that class time is sufficient to learn Spanish so homework isn't really needed, which would be a very hard thing to argue for a human language.
For what it's worth, I took Bulgarian folk music - I'm not Bulgarian, nor do I live in Bulgaria, nor can I play any musical instruments. Was it a waste of time? Acquiring knowledge is never a waste of time for me. Typing comments on HN might be though.
but if i were an english teacher assigning research-like papers, i'd definitely incorporate chatgpt responses into my assignments. make them write a draft with chatgpt3 then revise it themselves in class with pen and paper. then write a version in their own words without plagiarizing the chatgpt version, but they can only use google docs or some format that can track changes, so the teacher can see the process. or something like that — it would need some iterating and real-world feedback.
now THAT is a creative thing to do. I like that. I suppose the calculator version would be to do something like: "here is a simple graph plot, create an equation that produces a similar plot"
Wish there were more teachers like you embracing this stuff as a tool rather than doing your best to design a curriculum to 'defeat' it.
ChatGPT is not an author, it's a computer program. We don't expect bibliographies to include Microsoft Word, Grammerly, or iOS Keyboard Predictive Text in the list of references. If I use a piece of software to create an essay, the essay that's created belongs to me.
So a student that takes said output and hands it in is plagiarizing by claiming credit for something written by a different "author".
It'll probably take some time for language to evolve around non-human agents. There's no intrinsic reason to prefer separating (or combining) that terminology by humanness of agent, afaik. At least, for common usage. One will win and only time will tell.
Also, There's a commonly understood threshold for plagiarism where a single word won't qualify and a phrase probably won't qualify, but a whole paragraph does. That is why Grammarly isn't plagarism, not because it is software.
So in an academic context, for grading your understanding, it becomes meaningless to grade something written by a machine instead of by you. In other contexts, it's totally fine.
Where is the line between ChatGPT and Grammerly? Grammerly won't produce entire paragraphs, but it absolutely will rewrite sentences.
If I ask a human to write a 500 word essay on the invention of the computer, but give them the prompt, that is absolutely plagiarism.
If I ask Grammerly to write a 500 word essay on the invention of the computer, but give them the prompt, that is still absolutely plagiarism.
No, because someone else was the chef in that case. But if I bought a conveyer belt machine that made cheeseburgers automatically at the press of a button, and I used that machine to cook dinner—maybe!
If we lived in a world where machines like that were common, the meaning of "cooking" would change...
Maybe a better example is popcorn. I can make it in a microwave, or I can make it in a pot on the stove from scratch. It takes about the same amount of time, and the quality is about the same. But doing it by hand involves many more small decisions, like the amount of oil, corn kernels, heat, cook time, knowing when to stop, what flavor ingredients to add and how much etc. Now I can do it on autopilot and never have a single burned or unpopped kernel, but it took maybe 100 less-than-perfect efforts to get to that.
Students need to learn how to produce the best writing they can. If their best writing comes from feeding a prompt into ChatGPT, they should use ChatGPT. Presumably this student will also use ChatGPT in their writing post-graduation.
Of course, I would expect such a student to get marked down for factual errors, logical inconsistencies, and a lack of citations!
Some students, however, may take a hybrid approach, in which ChatGPT writes certain passages which the student manually cleans up. IMO, this is completely acceptable, and probably a good skill to practice! Students should learn how to use technology to produce the best work they can!
There are absolutely exceptions, when you'd want a student to practice writing independently. But writing the whole thing off as "plagiarism" is going much too far!
The same goes for composing an essay. It's not just about the ability to produce a cogent-looking essay, in the same way it isn't good enough that a kid can punch 17*13 into a calculator.
But, yes, calculators shouldn't always be allowed, and neither should ChatGPT. But, well, "plagiarism" is never allowed, so IMO the distinction matters!
By your logic could I not claim that I drew that ensuing picture because I "wrote the prompt"?
Let's take it a step further, what happens if I take my prompt and hire an artist on fiverr? We go back-and-forth via email as I ask them to make various changes and then wind up with a final drawing.
Am I still allowed to make the claim that I drew that picture?
I feel like "drawing" is a very specific action involving a writing utensil. I don't think I'd consider an image made in Adobe Illustrator to be "drawn", unless you were using a Wacom or similar.
But, yes, I'd say you could claim you "made" or "designed" the ensuing picture.
> Let's take it a step further, what happens if I take my prompt and hire an artist on fiverr? We go back-and-forth via email as I ask them to make various changes and then wind up with a final drawing. Am I still allowed to make the claim that I drew that picture?
No, because the artist on fiverr drew the picture.
Let's tweak this analogy a bit. Let's say you had a photograph of two people holding hands on a crowded beach. You want to retouch the photograph to remove the crowd, so the beach appears empty.
If you're lucky, you may be able to use Photoshop's Content Aware Fill to remove the crowd in less than a minute. In this case, you could absolutely claim that you retouched the photograph, even though Photoshop's algorithm did all of the work. A computer program can't be the creator of anything—the person using the program can.
If you're unlucky, Photoshop's Content Aware Fill will produce bad results, and you'll have to painstakingly go through the photo by hand. If you're short on time, you could hire a retoucher on Fiverr. In this scenario, however, you wouldn't be able to rightly claim that you retouched the photograph, because another human did that.
---
In every other case I can think of, the person using a tool gets to take credit for what they've made with the tool. Use an electronic screwdriver to fix a car? The screwdriver didn't fix the car, you did! Use a calculator to add two large numbers? The calculator didn't find the sum, you did.
None of this should change just because we have better tools. Schools may place additional limitations on students for certain assignments—math classes may restrict the use of calculators, art classes may restrict the use of drawing—but these limitations (1) should not always be in place for every assignment and thus (2) should be stated explicitly up-front.
I'm betting on schools using expanded remote proctoring software to monitor and record students' homework process and flag potential irregularities for teachers to check. Whether it's positive or negative for students' education, it will be less disruptive to schools than eliminating homework or significantly altering the curriculum.
Similarly, OpenAI's tools can be used to create all sorts of content marketing and other webspam. They they'll create a monetizable search engine-killer that knows how to ignore all this fluff (which will probably constitute 99% of the internet within a few years).
I wonder if we'll look back one day and say "remember back before 2020, when the internet was filled with junk, but at least it was human-written junk?".
Ah, so magnanimous of them to sell both the plague and the cure.
I say that tongue-in-cheek of course, but it seems that's where this is going, whether they make and sell both or let others do it. That is, both sides of the production and detection of this spam are about to profit handsomely from the overwhelming piles of it we're about to be drowning in.
Why are we making kids write entire persuasive essays and research papers when in the real world these are almost always the result of collaborative effort?
Although I thought it would be trivial to work around this heuristic by specifying "use some short sentences and some long sentences", that didn't really work for me. When I said "use only short sentences", the average sentence length was a bit shorter. But I was surprised that this type of meta instruction didn't work better (at least in this version).
I doubt a reliable technique for this is even ever possible.