Comment by SAI_Peregrinus | Hacker News Reader

Comment by SAI_Peregrinus | Hacker News Reader

Gender != Chromosomal sex != Physiological sex != Hormonal sex != Gametes produced (gametic sex).

A man is most commonly (by percentage of total adult human population) an XY male, with a penis/testes, and produce sperm.

A woman is most commonly (by percentage of total adult human population) an XX female, with vulva/vagina/uterus/ovaries and breasts, and produce eggs. Older women (after menopause) no longer produce eggs and so have neuter gametic sex.

Pre-pubescent children don't produce gametes, and thus have neuter gametic sex.

A trans man is an XX female, possibly with surgical alterations to physiological sex, possibly with hormone replacement therapy to alter hormonal sex, and possibly (if either of the two former are present) with neuter gametic sex. Being a man does not require being male.

A trans woman is an XY male, possibly with surgical alterations to physiological sex, possibly with hormone replacement therapy to alter hormonal sex, and possibly (if either of the two former are present) with neuter gametic sex. Being a woman does not require being female.

Other combinations are possible.

Confusing gender with the various forms of sex and sex characteristics is unnecessary and causes confusion.

It is true that gender is distinct from sex. But "Physiological sex", "Gametic sex", and "Chromosomal sex" are all the same thing. chromosomal disorders are not distinct sexes. Klinefelter males are still males, despite an extra X chromosome. Nor are Jacobs syndrome, Turner syndrome, etc. If a layperson saw a Turner syndrome female lying on a slab in a morgue, they would have zero problem identifying the body as female. These disorders often impair gamete production, but they're still the same sex. Likewise menopause does not change someone's sex. "Gametic sex" is redundant: sex determines gametes produced. Going through menopause or dropping sperm counts is not changing one's sex. When biologists say that sex corresponds to gametes produced, it's implying that it also encompasses "has produced in the past". A woman going through menopause continues to be female.

A post-operative trans person will display different physiology from what their chromosomes indicate.

"Gametic sex" is only useful when discussing fertility, and is (mostly) a function of the other aspects of sex, but can change to neuter without altering the others (e.g. via vasectomy).

Chromosomal sex can't change. It's the fixed characteristic. For most people, the other aspects of sex, gender, and sexual attraction are determined by their chromosomes.

If one is making a distinction between these aspects, it's important to be clear about which parts can vary. A trans man is much less likely to be color blind than a cis man, for example, so if you're studying color vision you should ask whether the subject has a Y chromosome and not what their gender identity is. If you're selling clothing, you probably want to know the gender identity (for the style) and physiology (for the fit), but don't care about the chromosomes. You'll get bad data if you mix them up.

> A post-operative trans person will display different physiology from what their chromosomes indicate.

Correct: they display a physiology significantly different from what they would naturally produce without hormonal and surgical alteration. Gender is a social construct that is expressed, while sex is an inmate characteristic determined by chromosomes (though the vast majority of people express a gender corresponding to their sex).

Gametic sex is redundant with chromosomal sex. A person without a Y chromosome will never, ever produce sperm. A person with a Y chromosome will not ever produce eggs. Genuine intersex conditions are extremely rare (on the other of hundredths of a percent) and no one has ever produced both gametes.

Gender identity is so strongly correlated with sex that it's reasonable to use them interchangeably. When we say "women give birth", "girls start to menstruate at puberty" and "men experience colorblindness more often" good faith listeners understand the unstated implication that this extends to transgender men that retain functional uteruses and trans women.

Yep! You are 100% correct. But good luck with this crowd. HN is all over the place with the gender != sex discussion.

It's an old word. It's been used both as a synonym for sex and as a different concept for most of its existence. Ideally we'd invent a new word to make the distinction easier.

I have never heard the term "gametic sex". How is it a useful distinction, when it normally changes throughout a person's life, unlike sex in any other interpretation of the word?

It's useful for determining fertility.

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