Comment by moonchrome | Hacker News Reader

Comment by moonchrome | Hacker News Reader

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>California has at-will employment, but you sure can't fire someone based on gender or age anywhere in the United States—and he opens with his desire to do just that.

I don't think you understand his position at all. Trying to fire someone in Europe is often compared to adopting a child, lawyers will take cases against former employers on commission because the probability of winning the case is extremely high. There is no comparison when it comes to US at-will employment, for eg. you have to be able to prove that the employee you fired for coming drunk to work was really drunk, that you gave him written warnings, flowed the formal procedure etc. To be fair tough, employers often use employment agencies that exploit loopholes but it only serves to increase the cost of labor. The only ones benefiting from these laws are the public sector and government owned company employees (ironically even government owned companies resort to exploiting loopholes because even they can't operate under the regulation). And these are probably much higher percentage of workforce than in the US.

And the corruption he is talking about is tax evasion and gray market, that's a huge part of the economy in these countries.

Also, I'm thinking the "progressive tax" in the US kicks in at a much higher nominal amount then Hungary, and that it's disproportionate to the cost of living difference.

I'm from Hungary, and I never heard of anyone suing their employer after getting fired. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you have to realize that the US is super-litiguous, E.European countries in comparison are at the other end of the spectrum: it doesn't really occur to people here to sue after losing their jobs. It's just not part of the culture. Also, private individuals can't afford lawyers, and don't want to deal with them.

As a neighboring Croatian I'm not 100% certain about Hungary but it seems very similar, so I think you need to chat with a few lawyers about this, the case about guy getting fired for coming to work drunk and then being rehired and the employer forced to pay the salaries in between because he couldn't prove his claim isn't made up :)

They sue with the help of unions. True, this doesn't apply for startups, though.

This.

In much of the world people will complain to a government department if they are discriminated against, and expect the department to investigate impartially.

It is typically only in high-value cases (ie, C-level executives, sexual harassment cases where high levels of damages are expected etc) where people usually seek private representation.

(I'm from Australia, and this is the case here. In my state I'd use this procedure: http://www.eoc.sa.gov.au/eo-you/making-complaint)

Of course they do sue. There is the whole "Munkaügyi Bíróság" (Work Court or whatever) to deal with the zillion lawsuits against companies firing people. And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm saying, more often than not, these regulations backfire, and harm those, whom they should protect. Goverments create an environment in which employer and employee see each others as enemies, literally. They promote this view. Here I experience public anger against companies, investors, banks, especially multinational companies, but even smaller companies, who look successful. "Workers" see companies as their enemies. This is plain wrong, and bad, and nobody benefits. Only the corrupt, inefficent, incompetent goverments.

Yes, you're right. My point was that Hungary is probably still better than say the United States, which is famous for being a very litigious nation. Unfortunately, I can't find number to back up my gut feeling.

My wife was fired when she was pregnant, because she was pregnant - which is illegal here in Italy - and they were so kind as to write so in a letter (never underestimate human stupidity/arrogance). We're taking the case to court, and I can tell you that there is no "on commission" here in Italy (also forbidden by the law).

OK, I don't know about Italy so fair point "Europe" is too broad. But still you've confirmed his point about not wanting to hire women, especially if Italy is comparable in maternity leave. And don't tell me you aren't expecting to win this case.

As a matter of fact, businesses not wanting to hire women is a problem in Italy, even if guaranteed, paid (by a national "insurance" agency) maternity leave is just 5 months here (usually 2 months before birth, and 3 after).

5 months don't look as too much to me; this notwithstanding many businesses only hire young women if they sign a blank resignation letter (which of course is illegal too, but very difficult to prove). I agree it's a very complicated matter.

The best solution imho would be to have more state-subsidized childcare solutions (we have some, but much less than needed), which would make young mothers more productive for employers, but I understand that most free-market advocates wouldn't agree :)

PS Yes I expect to win the case, because my wife's former employer so patently broke the rules. But here in Italy justice is so slow (next month there will be the first hearing, 8 months after we sued) and compensations so little that very often employers get away with it. I decided to go to court more to defend a principle than for an economic reason.

Well the point is - what's wrong with firing them ? If it's easy to fire someone it's also easy to hire and if they want to and hire her back afterwards or arrange some acceptable maternity leave and things like being available on-phone or one two days a week two months after birth, etc. that would not be possible under the "protection laws". Is she any less skilled after delivery. You could also accept a different pay, etc. But the point is there is a cost to the employer and regulation just reduces market flexibility and creates situations where it's tougher for a women to get the job in the first place. And as far as I know you get benefits for child, especially in the first year, from government, I'm not sure what's the situation with that in Italy.

It's wrong if they fired her because she is pregnant (and about to take the maternity leave I presume). Its almost the equivalent of firing a male employee who accrued a lot of leaves (by not using any) and about to use them.

Benefits per child are very very low here, and many couples don't have children because if the woman loses her job, with the added expenses too, it will become very difficult to make ends meet. Also for this reason Italy has one of the lowest birth rate in the world (second only to Spain, if I recollect correctly).

With generous (eg like in France) benefits per child, or generous unemployment benefits for young mothers, I could agree with more flexibility. The problem is, benefits cost immediate money from the State while putting the burden on families and businesses only costs in the long run. Given our current debt, the choice is very limited...

I think fiscal burden as opposed to regulatory burden is much less costly to the economy and the inflexible job market creates structural problems and prevents innovation, but at this point - with the interest rates countries such as Italy have to pay - I don't see that happening.

I think the best thing countries in Europe could do is implement something like a negative income tax and kill all that regulation and special programs/taxes/bureaucracy but I haven't even heard anyone in Europe propose such a move.

I can assure you that there is a lot of talking about that. Right now, there is serious discussion here in Italy about taking away some job protection from those who have too much (usually older people) and give some more to those who have none at all, through some kinds of contracts (usually younger people).

I don't think that deregulation is always right, but it is when you have too much - and we do have too much regulation, too much discretionarily applied.

But that's just talking about labor restrictions, and it's standard political bickering, nothing revolutionary will come out of that, Europe is too populist for any real change to happen. What I'm talking about is restructuring the tax/welfare system with something like this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Eliminate paper currency and only have digital transactions, force the banks to disclose accounts and transaction information to remove gray economy and use NIT scheme instead of all the special programs. That way everyone get's the same safety net when they are unemployed or poorly paid and you can have unregulated at-will employment because employees aren't forced to negotiate for bare minimum.

That's illegal through all the Europe and that's OK and how it should be. We are speaking however about possibility to fire person who harms company intentionally.

P.S. 3 years maternity leave in Hungary looks really bad IMHO.

3 years maternity leave in Hungary looks really bad IMHO.

On the other hand, it looks really good for the children. This is worth paying for.

So pay for it, instead of asking someone else to pay for it for you.

And I - sincerely - wish you all the best, and I hope you will win. I'm not against decent, and fair laws that protect women's rights to pregnancy. But it's a national issues. The state must cover the bill. When they try to get the bill payed by the employers, it backfires, and at the end of the game, HARMS women, who can't get enough good jobs.

Thanks :)

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