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Comment by jujugoboom | Hacker News Reader

This is such a poor faith argument that completely ignores any reality. These companies have had a massive last decade or so, and if what you're saying is really the case, then we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly. Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of Americans, with the lions share of wealth created during the last 2 years of resurgent economic boom going to the top 1% of Americans, not the fixed income middle america boomers who are currently dying because they can't afford to keep living on social security.

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> we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly.

I'd be interested to see evidence but I suspect we did see this? Retirement portfolios and housing prices (where the majority of elderly wealth is) ballooned.

> Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of American

The elderly are the richest Americans so this is consistent with the elderly getting wealthier.

Retirement accounts are largely a benefit enjoyed by those well-enough off to have them [1], as well as owning a home. So while yes, these indicators have increased, it only speaks to how the bulk of wealth created since 2008 has gone to mostly well-off individuals. And while yes, wealth is overall heavily weighted to older generations, it does not change the fact that the only people who are rich are the rich, regardless of age. While most wealthy people are boomers, most boomers are not wealthy. If you look at economic insecurity (200% FPL), the elderly in America are over-represented, with a rate of about 33% compared to ~27% overall[2].

[1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retir... [2] https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-...

Your analysis doesn't match the economic measures I've been reading, which indicate that lower income workers in the US have seen real wage gains and that homeowners have seen net worth increases, and are feeling wealthier. Unemployment is very low, despite the recent layoffs, and many categories of employment are still seeing upwards wage pressure.

Social Security is pinned to inflation, so I don't understand why those living on Social Security payments might be in different circumstances now than 5 years ago.

I have no clue where you're finding that lower income workers are experiencing any real wage gains, let alone at a significant rate. Home ownership as a percentage of population has never recovered anywhere near pre-2008 levels, so on behalf of myself and most people in my generation and cohort, I couldn't care less if homeowners have more money, that fact is having less of a bearing on our real world with each day. And yes, social security is pinned to inflation so their situation hasn't changed much in 5 years, you're right, most elderly people in america are dying poor and increasingly alone in nursing homes seeking to extract profit from them. None of these points have anything to do with my original point, which is that since the 2008 recession, the tech industry has seen a massive influx of money, and to try and argue that the money put into that industry somehow makes it back to middle america because of some made up idea of who shareholders are is a bad faith argument, and ignores any reality of the situation. I have no idea what it is with people like you who just want to die on the hill of nothing being wrong and that we just have to keep doing what we're doing. A better future is possible, and only if we all start believing it is.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-in...

"The labor economist Arindrajit Dube has estimated hourly wage changes — by decile rather than quartile — over a longer period, since the beginning of the pandemic recession. He finds that real wages for the bottom 40 percent of workers have actually increased".

While yes, real wages for the bottom 50% have increased according to FRED data, that trend only appears if you look at data from 2020-2022. If you look a little further back, to about 2008, you'll find that real wages for the bottom 50% has grown at a much slower rate than those in the top 50%[1]. This also all ignores that percentages are deceiving when looking at small windows of data, and only suggests how current situations may compare to previous situations, not the overall situation someone is in. Many of the people in the bottom 50%, and especially as you get into lower deciles, have not been in a good place for a while now, and while real wage growth is great, it does little to truly improve their situations (remember, percentages result in a lower actual value when your starting value is lower). If you really wanted to make this argument, then you could pull up net worth data that shows a 110% increase from 2020-2022 for the bottom 50% compared to only a 27% increase for the top 0.1%, but then someone might show you a graph of the data and ask for you to point to the 110% increase[2]. I don't know what it is with weirdos online trying to cherry-pick data to try and prove poor people aren't poor, but it's really getting old.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/WCrJ40c [2] https://imgur.com/a/t1tQe4n

Edit: also interesting to point out that 2020-2022 has included things like direct-to-citizen stimulus checks, and large government investment in the form of the build back better package. If anything, it is a testament that direct aid to people struggling does more to improve their immediate situation than any other solution proposed by neoliberals and the GOP. If that is your argument, then I will agree with you, and say we should do more, like a UBI and increased taxes on the wealthy to start to undo decades of socioeconomic stratification.

> If that is your argument

I wasn't arguing for a particular point, but I do happen to advocate for basic income policies funded by progressive taxes.

> to about 2008

I must have overlooked that you were talking about a longer time period than the pandemic. Most people recently have been discussing the stimulus policies and correlated (not necessarily caused) inflation. There's been a trend of saying they were counter-productive for lower income households, which is not supported by FRED measurements.

> I wasn't arguing for a particular point

From my original comment, my statement you took issue with was

> Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of Americans, with the lions share of wealth created during the last 2 years of resurgent economic boom going to the top 1% of Americans

which is a very substantiated claim[1]. Your counter argument was that in the same time frame, the bottom 40% have seen real wage gains. My counter to that argument is that while it is true, it still doesn't reflect where most of the money is actually going, and is a disingenuous argument that makes the situations of the lower 50% seem better than it is. I never argued that stimulus policies were bad for lower-income households. Not sure what point you're trying to make to me.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/16/richest-1percent-amassed-alm...

> Not sure what point you're trying to make to me.

I wanted to add nuance to the statement about most wealth going to the top. The last two years have also been great for (some groups of) poorer Americans. Real wages had been going down since the 1970s. Now, up (for some cohorts). Unemployment is down.

The world has detail.

If I had to make a point, I suppose it'd be that summaries can be misleading. But, I'm not interested in engaging in a debate of points and counter-points. There's no judge here, awarding victory and speaker points. I suppose upvotes are tracked, but we've moved off the front page. Not so much traffic to give us a sample.

> If I had to make a point, I suppose it'd be that summaries can be misleading.

Then I guess I have to agree with you, when discussing where wealth went during 2020, and the state of the lower 50% of Americans, it is misleading to only point out that the lower ~50% experienced wage growth without also pointing out that a majority share of overall wealth still went to the 1% and that the real gains have still not caught up with the terrible situation they've been in for years. As for the original point, the claim that the majority of wealth created since 2020 has gone to the 1% is not made any more nuanced by including that real wages have increased for the bottom 50%, as all it does is distract from the actual issues at hand.

> distract from the actual issues at hand.

On the contrary, noticing that real wages increased for the poorest 40% may motivate policies like a universal income / citizen dividend. Perhaps a higher steady state inflation is necessary, 4% instead of 2%, to keep unemployment low and real wages rising for the poorest.

Have you considered what happened to the wealthiest 1% as inflation fears led to increased interest rates? I'm guessing the nominal wealth declines affected the wealthiest most of all. I haven't seen measurements of that, yet, but I have seen some headlines about Musk and Adani.

> On the contrary, noticing that real wages increased for the poorest 40% may motivate policies like a universal income / citizen dividend.

Its an interesting argument but it has already been seen in America where neo-libs and the GOP have shifted most of the blame for inflation to the stimulus checks, so I doubt it.

> Perhaps a higher steady state inflation is necessary, 4% instead of 2%, to keep unemployment low and real wages rising for the poorest.

The only way I could see higher inflation leading to higher wages is worse material conditions leading to more workers fighting for higher wages. Unless there's some weird economics at play, I don't see any other reason why inflation would increase wages, and if that is the reason, I'm not going to support any platform that only works because it increases misery.

> Have you considered what happened to the wealthiest 1% as inflation fears led to increased interest rates?

Yes, they saw a small adjustment in net worth down 7% at the beginning of 2022, although that seems to have flattened out since then, and real wages have only increased since early 2021, when they fell ~1% in Q1 2021. I'm not sure what you'd do with this, because increasing interest rates reduces inflation, which works against your (since you don't like the word argument) idea that we should keep inflation higher.

Nominal wages are a part of inflation, so there's nothing about the inflation rate that inherently changes real wages. If all components of inflation increased uniformly, purchasing power would stay constant. Inflation is only a drag to the extent that it's surprising.

However, there seems to be a relationship between inflation and unemployment. It's been cloudy, but the hypothesis is that low unemployment causes higher inflation. I further conjecture that sustained low unemployment flattens the income curve, leading to higher real wages at the low end.

Regardless, low unemployment is a good thing in its own right.

> Nominal wages are a part of inflation, so there's nothing about the inflation rate that inherently changes real wages

Again, no they aren't, the only link would be that inflation worsens material conditions, which could lead to more people seeking higher wages, which overall improves wage conditions. The only "link" we've seen is recently, and even looking just behind the 2020s you can find inflation causing real wage decreases [1].

> If all components of inflation increased uniformly, purchasing power would stay constant

"If" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

> Inflation is only a drag to the extent that it's surprising.

Tell that to people who are un-banked, working minimum wage, or really any average person and see what their response is.

> However, there seems to be a relationship between inflation and unemployment.

Not sure where you're seeing this, and its hard to try and claim, as we are just now reaching pre-2020 levels of unemployment, not some mythical low level of unemployment. I could see an argument for lowering unemployment leading to higher inflation, but a stable low unemployment has shown no bearing on inflation.

> I further conjecture that sustained low unemployment flattens the income curve, leading to higher real wages at the low end.

Thats a nice conjecture, but again, just look right before 2020 to find the perfect counter argument, and data coming out from the end of 2022 is showing the opposite[2], that as U6 has reached an all time low (which I will say is not too shabby), real wages have started to slow their growth.

> low unemployment is a good thing in its own right

I know I'm probably starting to seem combative here, but again, this just isn't always true. For the overall state of our economy and the safety of the wealth of the richest, maybe, but on one end of the unemployment chart it speaks to less people being able to make it by without jobs. Employment among people with disabilities is at its lowest[2], which speaks to our societies inability to care for those who need it. People with disabilities are not going out and finding jobs because bagging at a grocery store is fulfilling, they're doing it because they can't afford not to.

On a different note, I'm really not trying to seem combative, and I hope you're enjoying our fake online discussion as much as I am.

[1] https://positivemoney.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/CPI-inf... [2] https://cepr.net/jobs-2023-1/

The discussion is real enough for me. However, lacking knowledge of the interlocutor brings a few problems. It's hard to know what shared knowledge and context we have.

One difference in terms that we're having trouble with is "inflation". When I spoke of "inflation" previously, I meant it in the general sense, not specifically consumer goods prices, or some other subset of prices. By definition, that means that nominal wages are included. The price of labor is just another price that inflates along with everything else. Note that the chart you linked [1] says "CPI inflation" rather than simply "inflation".

As for the relationship between unemployment and inflation, it's in a standard economics textbook. Unfortunately, the evidence for the theory has been somewhat mixed.

When I say "fake", I hope it comes off in the sense of "not having a bearing on the real world", not trying to diminish anything.

> Note that the chart you linked [1] says "CPI inflation" rather than simply "inflation"

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2021/06/28/how-does-...

When I'm speaking of inflation, I use the generally accepted definition of "a general increase in prices and fall in the purchasing value of money." This is why in the US we use CPI (and sometimes PCE) to measure inflation, it allows us to track how the prices of goods change, and through that we are (theoretically) able to track what the actual inflation rate over time is. Inflation in the macro sense can come from many places, but in general it is accepted that while wages _should_ keep up with normal inflation of 2% or so in America, that inflation eats away at stagnant wages, and has little direct effect on its own over wages, as evidenced by looking at average wages vs inflation, even in 2022 where the bottom 50% experienced their real wage growth[1]. "Price of labor" is much more theoretical in modern america, as there are many regulations that affect it, along with the much decreased bargaining power of the average worker since the decline in union membership, along with the fact that the average person anywhere in the world is not going to ever "buy labor", its a price that corporations set themselves and pay exclusively, and is therefore already fairly detached from any inflation (yes, I understand that corporate spending is still spending, but that argument starts getting a little trickle-down). As I said before, I can see there being a link between inflation and wage rise, but I still don't see where the root cause could be other than material conditions worsening leading to people fighting for higher wages. I guess in a "we need to fight more for ourselves" sense this isn't terrible, but I think we need to move away from a system where the way to progress is through misery.

I will say I was incorrect about the standard view of the relationship of unemployment and inflation, and that historically there has been (and it makes sense for there to be) a link between high inflation and low unemployment. Again, though, there are several ways to look at this, and it depends on where you think the driver of inflation is. If you (informally) believe that inflation comes from supply-side, then its pretty easy to explain the current inflation as we have consistently seen breakdowns in supply chains that have consistently led to lower supply. For demand-side inflation I think an argument could be made there, as with direct-to-consumer stimulus there is more money (along with the same amount of money going into PPP loans for buisness-owners), but looking at real disposable income[2], we are just reaching pre-2020 levels (aside from some very obvious spikes where stimulus checks were). Without extra disposable income across the board, I'm not sure where the extra discretionary spending would come from to increase prices. According to the NY Fed, the inflation was mostly caused by the demand shock (specifically) when recovering from early 2020, and supply-side issues[3].

For more context, I do fancy myself a bit of a work-abolitionist and am horribly left, so it is definitely coloring my takes, but I hope I'm providing enough data for my claims to counteract my inherent bias.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=SCYD [2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DSPIC96 [3] https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2022/08/how-mu...

That Brookings article starts with, "Inflation refers to changes over time in the overall level of prices of goods and services throughout the economy." Services includes labor. The Bureau of Labor Statistics publishes the Employment Cost Index (ECI), which may be even more influential on the Federal Reserve Board's interest rate decisions than the Consumer Price Index (CPI).

The general public are consumers, so it's plausible that the "generally accepted" definition of inflation considers mostly the CPI. However, many generally accepted things are incorrect. If we're having a more technical discussion, it's reasonable to use a more technical definition. Perhaps best to be specific, saying "consumer price inflation" and "employment cost inflation" rather than simply "inflation" with no modifiers.

Notice that recent news about inflation has been deceleration of consumer prices. Most importantly, of rent, the largest component of the CPI. If the FRB were only concerned with that, they'd probably not have voted to increase the interest rate on Feb 1st. I'm guessing they had access to unemployment rate numbers from the BLS, which published a surprising job growth report today.

> people fighting for higher wages

My "fight" has been quite easy. I simply ask for it, or go get a different job that pays more. Of course it's not so easy for some people, but over the last couple years I've heard anecdotes from many business owners moaning over their employees' demands. "I just can't find any [qualified people that accept the wage I paid last year]." A friend of mine, an hourly worker, got an 18% raise in January!

The idea one might believe in either supply-side or demand-side causes of inflation and not both is strange to me. First, the primary driver of inflation in the long run is monetary policy. That's not controversial (among economists). Whether to consider price changes due to supply and demand as inflation is trickier, especially because those causes are so difficult to disentangle from monetary causes. Second, in considering short-term price changes due to the balance of supply and demand, they're clearly both important for almost all goods and services.

> Services includes labor

No. "In classical economics, labor is one of the three factors of production, along with land and capital. Labor is often defined as the physical or mental effort exerted by human beings in the production of goods and services. In neoclassical economics, labor is a broader concept that incorporates all human activity that adds value to a product or service"[1]. And while the ECI does exist, and is used by the fed to inform inflationary policy, it includes all costs of employing someone, indicating inflation in the health care market just as much as in wages. Labor is known to be much more of a reactive market[2], and also much more affected by things like the labor participation rate than inflation on its own. Even your original source for real wage increases uses the CPI. It also makes sense to use a measure of consumer inflation when talking about wages, as again, most consumers aren't buying labor.

> If the FRB were only concerned with that, they'd probably not have voted to increase the interest rate on Feb 1st.

Yes because the FRB is concerned with large scale monetary policy, and only have a few strings to pull. Interest rate hikes are intended to slow monetary velocity, effectively decreasing money supply, and has nothing to do with the housing market.

> Of course it's not so easy for some people

Bit of an understatement

>but over the last couple years I've heard anecdotes from many business owners moaning over their employees' demands

And? Anecdotes aren't sources, so I don't know what to do for ya here.

> A friend of mine, an hourly worker, got an 18% raise in January

That's awesome for them! It doesn't change that its anecdotal, and doesn't change any of the previous data that I've included to show that at best the lowest 50% are just starting to reach and surpass where they were in 2000.

> The idea one might believe in either supply-side or demand-side causes of inflation and not both is strange to me

I never said it was one or the other, and even linked to sources that included a breakdown of the share of each. I was more speculating on the driver of the higher than average inflation since 2020, and included fed breakdowns that gave evidence for a good amount of supply-side inflation, whereas most American pundits tend to cast it in a demand-side only light (people have more money so they spend more kinds of arguments). I even pointed out where it was demand-side in the fed report, although they show that it is not more people with more money, but an effective contraction (from reduced monetary velocity) and subsequent rapid inflation of monetary supply following COVID.

>First, the primary driver of inflation in the long run is monetary policy

I really need you to pick a time frame. I thought we were arguing inflation for 2020s. Yes obviously monetary policy tends to have the most influence in the long run. I also don't think anyone would say that inflation in the 2020s has been driven by monetary policy, and in general it isn't in times where its higher than what is wanted from monetary policy, like what we've been experiencing.

[1] https://study.com/academy/lesson/labor-types-importance-exam... [2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/qai/2022/10/01/us-wage-growth-f...

We're largely talking past each other now. I find myself repeatedly trying to make a distinction between inflation in general and consumer price inflation specifically.

Consumers may not often directly buy labor (though it feels otherwise as a homeowner seeking a handyman) but the cost of labor matters nonetheless.

There are many people who might blame inflation in the 2020s on quantitative easing, which is a monetary policy.

It's interesting that you're going with a "classical" definition of labor, but not one for inflation, which would classically be defined as purely a monetary phenomenon independent of price changes due to supply and demand.

> I find myself repeatedly trying to make a distinction between inflation in general and consumer price inflation specifically

The issue I'm having with the distinction you're trying to make is that you're also trying to argue wages, which is only helpful in the context of consumer price inflation. Consumer price is also the best measure we have of inflation, since it is the only measure that is widely available and open to the public.

> though it feels otherwise as a homeowner seeking a handyman

Yes, part of what you're paying for is labor, but I guarantee that if the laborers actually got paid what you're getting charged, the world would be a very different place. The main difference between labor and any other good or service is that it does not exchange at its value, it necessarily has to exchange below its value, or else nobody would see profit (that value that people make that companies keep). This is necessary in a capitalist economy or it falls apart. This is why its hard for me to want to include it in our discussion about wages and inflation, because it is valued very differently from anything else, and again, is not something most everyday people are concerned about, which I've been very consistent about arguing about. I have not once talked about how inflation has affected corporations or businesses because I honestly don't care, so I don't see how a discussion about cost of labor is anywhere near relevant (if you say its "part of inflation" again I'm done with this).

> There are many people who might blame inflation in the 2020s on quantitative easing, which is a monetary policy.

https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2022/08/how-mu... Already included a link where I gave evidence against that fact, and have not once myself said it was. Not sure where you're getting this argument from, but its not mine and I've never claimed it.

> It's interesting that you're going with a "classical" definition of labor, but not one for inflation, which would classically be defined as purely a monetary phenomenon independent of price changes due to supply and demand.

If thats the definition you want to use, then why do you keep going on about labor cost. If you want to use the monetary phenomenon definition, then inflation is just about monetary supply being higher than it was previously, which is what I said. While we did "see" an increase of money supply at the beginning of 2020, it was not to the degree that people try to argue (mostly M1 catching up with M3), and the monetary velocity was horrendously low (e.g. coin shortage). A low monetary velocity is essentially a lower money supply, which when rebounding resembles inflation (the link I've now included twice from the NY fed).

I agree that we're largely talking past each other. I've been trying to keep the discussion on real wage increases and the fact that although it has happened for the bottom 50% in the last 2 years, it hasn't helped much with their situation, and no redefinition of inflation is going to change that, so I'm still not sure why you're so stuck on it.

Ah, good, so we've agreed that the pandemic-related economic stimulus appeared to increase real wages for the poor. That's all I was getting at.

Whether that's sufficient to be interesting, I'm not energetic enough to debate.

Pretty sure I agreed with that ages ago... https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jujugoboom#34591865

Hope you got what you wanted out of this

Same. It's hard to keep track of conversation in this forum. While typing a reply, it only shows the most recent comment. My comments are always myopic.

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