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Comment by Volundr | Hacker News Reader

I hear you and doubt nothing about your plight, but frankly that feels like a you problem. I can sympathize while also rejecting the idea that I should have to come into the office so your not lonely.

Have you considered a co-working space? It seems like that could get you what your looking for. Beyond that I'd look to get creative around finding ways to get social outside work. A martial arts or social dance class for example. Frankly I think it's much healthier if your coworkers aren't the core of your social life.

FWIW I too had this problem at the start of the pandemic. My solution was to build a gym and workout with my friends 3x a week. Obviously this isn't a solution for your plight in a new city.

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You should look at the bigger picture. People usually find friends as a byproduct of of some activity, such as work, studies, hobbies, or activism. If you remove the activity people spend a third of their waking hours on from the list, the result is a massive reduction in the number of friends people have. And it's going to hit the people who can't easily make friends the hardest.

This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow.

> This is not an individual problem. It's an issue that affects the entire society. Social isolation feeds many undesirable things, such as political polarization and extremism. If a society wants to survive, it has to deal with the issue somehow.

Agreed, and I think the best way is for people to realize that "the people I chat with at the water-cooler" are not my friends, and take action based on that. Job loss and retirement are often terribly isolating events for people for exactly the reason your specify. Work is 1/2 of their waking life and they rely on it too heavily for their social needs.

Forcing the majority who prefer work from home to work from the office because a minority of people will feel lonely does not "benefit society". It hides a real problem that some people have while sacrificing the rest of us to do so. If the majority of us wanted to work in the office this would be a non-issue. GP would've simply gone to the office, found the majority of their co-workers there and been perfectly happy, while those of us who wanted WFH were happily home. Better to tackle the problem head on than sweep it under the rug.

The friends you meet at work are no different from the friends you meet at dance/martial arts class. They are tied to an activity, and if you quit the activity, you are likely to lose most of them.

The core problem is that remote work can easily mean 8 hours/day of social isolation. Especially because those are the hours people have the most energy to try new things. If people spend that time avoiding social contacts, they are obviously not going to make many friends.

Historically, neighbors were a key source of friends, because they were the community you lived in. 20th century changed that. Today neighbors are simply people who happen to sleep near you temporarily. They are probably away from home during the day, their jobs are unrelated to yours, and they will likely relocate sooner or later.

Who will form the community you will spend your time with by default, if it's no longer your neighbors or coworkers?

There is no default. There never was. This is exactly the idea I am saying we need to combat. Building lasting relationships takes time and reciprocated effort. The people who want to WFH aren't going to become "friend candidates" because they are forced into the office. The are either already "friend candidates" prepared to reciprocate advances, or they aren't interested. Remote isn't the barrier here. Physical proximity just has the potential to give someone the illusion of a connection that hasn't actually been formed. Once someone realizes this and learns to put effort into their social connections, they are far less likely to end up isolated than just hoping showing up at work will make the difference.

And that is where dance/martial arts class is different. Everyone there has decided to show up. Your also a lot less likely to get laid off from book club than your job.

If people want to work together in the same space 8 hours a day more power too them! Go have a good time in the office and let us WFH folks be. But if there aren't enough who want to be in the office to satisfy the office dwellers it doesn't become the WFH folk's responsibility to keep them company. If we are open to friendship, we already were.

Defaults matter, because people take the easy default choice most of the time. If people don't meet other people by default, they will have fewer casual acquaintances and they are less likely to meet the ones who will become good friends. Then there will be fewer friends overall.

> Once someone realizes this and learns to put effort into their social connections, they are far less likely to end up isolated than just hoping showing up at work will make the difference.

This is fundamentally the "communism would work, if" argument. Individual people can choose to make the non-default choice. People on the average don't do that.

> People on the average don't do that.

This is part of the idea I'm contesting. Remember, "65" has an office they can go to, their problem is no one else wants to. Unless you are asserting that you are a better judge of what is good for 65's co-workers then they themselves are, presumably "on average" they have found sufficient social interaction to satisfy themselves outside of the office. And if you are asserting that you know better than them and they should be forced into the office for their own good, I soundly reject that notion.

Just "going with the default" of spending time with co-workers and is exactly how people end up isolated late in life or after losing their jobs. People who are struggling with isolation now should introspect on why they are struggling to make friends and address that instead of attempting to force others into being around them. That's not how friends treat friends.

Again, communism would work if everyone behaved like a good communist. They don't, because the default is acting in the interests of yourself and people near you rather than in the interests of the wider society. If you insist on communism, the whole society suffers, because most people take the default choice and do what's good for them.

If social isolation during work is the default, people will have fewer friends, because making friends takes more effort. They may be satisfied with their situation, because they contrast the outcomes of having more friends with the effort needed to make them. But the entire society may be worse off than a society where people have more friends because working with other people is the default.

Fundamentally, everything based on the idea that people should make different choices is doomed to fail. To make the society better, you must work on structural level and change the defaults.

There is a certain irony to stating "Fundamentally, everything based on the idea that people should make different choices is doomed to fail." in an argument that everyone choosing WFH should either make different choices or be forced to.

> If social isolation during work is the default, people will have fewer friends, because making friends takes more effort.

I disagree. If these people were making friends by just being at work, they wouldn't be feeling so lonely right now. They would already have plenty of social connections that would not just evaporate because your not in the office anymore. Even those just entering the workforce should have these friends from school. Instead constantly being around people at work makes people "feel" less lonely, hiding the fact that they haven't actually made a deeper connection. Shoving people back in the office will just hide it again, it won't fix the problem. It'll just decrease the quality of life of everyone who happier right now. On the other hand leaving things as they are and instead supporting those feeling isolated in finding other outlets lets the majority of people keep doing what's working for them, and the rest are likely have motivation to fix the problem.

> I disagree. If these people were making friends by just being at work, they wouldn't be feeling so lonely right now. They would already have plenty of social connections that would not just evaporate because your not in the office anymore.

The issue is finding friends after relocating to a new area. That's easier for some and harder for others. With coworkers, you already have a pool of people to spend time with. Through them, you can meet other people and learn about activities that are available in the area.

I firmly reject the idea that I must go back to having a commute and give up all the QoL improvements of work from home just so I can sit around the office awaiting the day we hire someone from out of town, so that I can serve as tour guide and social matchmaker.

Furthermore a read through the comments on this thread make it pretty unambiguous that the problem is not restricted to people new to the area.

This is much more than a one person's problem, but it's a general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately. As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions. There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

It's a symptom of societies that require you to work way too much and get everything (status, health care, socialization) from your job.

This is true but also “fix all of society” is a hard first step and there are folks who are unhappy now.

Oh I'm not saying that, I'm saying this is HN and most people posting here have the ability to take a step back from work and build a social life for the sake of their mental health. Working yourself literally to death isn't cool.

I also think it's fair to say that a lot of people are happy going to work and a lot of people really aren't. I feel like all of these threads are super passionate with one side trying to convince the (super unconvince-able) other side, which is why my responses are something like "get a situation together that works for you". "Convince millions of other people they're wrong and you're right about something they care about deeply" is a steeper climb.

Would you like college to be remote too? School? Let's all wake up in our pijamas, hop on a zoom and live most of our lives like that?

For many college is remote. That's the new norm for many.

It was common even before the pandemic. Plenty of colleges offered certain courses or even full degrees remotely.

> Would you like college to be remote too?

I think the university system is pretty hamstrung by the number of students it can accept. A lot of grad programs are coming online (I used to work at 2U which does this) and this is good both for students and the school as more students get an education and the school gets more income. Whether or not I want it to happen (I think it's probably an important part of reforming the university system) it seems like it's happening anyway.

> School?

I think most studies show this is pretty bad, so no.

> Let's all wake up in our pijamas, hop on a zoom

Probably twice a week I get through the whole work day in my PJs and I'm great at my job, so that sounds fine.

> live most of our lives like that?

Nah I'll go to the grocery store in the AM for supplies in my PJs but that's the extent of it.

Yes! Yes! So much yes!

It's time saving AND money saving

> general issue that many older people with well-established lives don't sympathize with unfortunately

Many young adults have friends.

> As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions.

I will deny it. Citation or speak for yourself.

> This is much more than a one person's problem

100% agree, that was poor phrasing on my part, it was meant to communicate where the responsibility for fixing the problem lies, not claim the problem was isolated to a single, or even small number of people.

> There's hardly a substitute for that outside.

Strongly, 100% disagree. Work friendships tend to be fleeting, causing job loss or retirement to be isolating events. Yes lasting friendships can and do form in the workplace (I've formed some even while working remotely!), but getting laid off is a great way to discover just how many of those work friendships were of convenience.

Meanwhile there are tons of ways to meet people outside of work. Dance classes, workshops, exercise classes, book clubs, beekeeping clubs, etc. I submit that a person who can't form friendships outside of work is unlikely to form the lasting kind at work, and is better off in the long run examining why that is, rather than papering over it with a temporary bandaide.

I see what you mean now. Good points.

> As much as others can deny, work is source of most people's friendships, relationships, mentorships, and other social interactions.

And other commenters assert that most people don't get those things at work.

I think it's easy to mistake our own experiences as being similar to "most people". We should probably try to avoid ascribing our own preferences as being the same as the majority's.

Also, in the case of something as personal as friendships, it doesn't actually matter what "most people" do.

> frankly that feels like a you problem

It's also a me problem, so there's at least two of us.

I’ve asked around my friend and coworkers group all 20s and everyone feels this way. Remote work is terrible for young people.

Anecdata, but my friends in the 22 - 26 range don't feel this way. _But_, they have an active social life (football club together) and go out together every weekend or every other weekend. And they don't mind remote work. So I don't think it's an age issue, but more a socializing issue?

I have a strong social group but am also in the single 20s group, and realized I cannot stand remote work.

It probably would have been better if I hadn’t moved out of my parents house. For a brief moment I was living the dream in the city with a 5 minute walk to work, then I found myself remote working sitting on a Monday thinking about the dinner party with friends I’ve planned for Saturday for the weekly social interaction.

Your username is “gigachad” and you never considered the option of going to a gym on weekdays? Not going to say I have made lifetime friends at the gym but I have nice conversations with other regulars fairly often, it’s a good serotonin top-up.

Even works for finding romantic partners as well if you’re not creepy about it, in fact two regulars at my gym just got married.

There’s always the bar as well but of course alcohol-based socializing is not quite so healthy.

Yes I’ve spent significant time at the gym. It doesn’t fill the void of spending 8 hours working alone.

I have so many great memories of work from 6-3 years ago, but 3 to now is just a void, sitting at home on Teams calls. What makes things worse is my city has the oldest population in the country so there is hardly anything going on outside of work as well. I've made the decision to move to a bigger city where I can work in office with everyone along with every other benefit of a larger population.

To be fair, gym is fairly individual activity here. You will be seen as annoying if you try to interact with others.

That’s why I do classes, there’s usually way more social interaction, not to mention access to coaching (which I strongly believe many solo lifters would benefit from)

Not true of my friend and coworker group. You should think carefully of confounding factors before taking anecdotal data and extrapolating to something that applies to a much larger group.

Me three. I happen to have a strong friend group, but being single and living alone, the first few months of the pandemic were miserable from a solitary confinement standpoint. Even in recent years if I have to WFH for any reason, it's just the worst thing. Plus I'm just not productive when I'm working home alone.

I'm extremely thankful that my company is mostly comprised of people who prefer and thrive working in our one office. And no, I'm not using my coworkers as my friend group. Despite loving some of my work friends, my strongest friends are all outside the office. But the office environment and the people in it give me life.

When it comes time to look for a next job (if ever), the biggest requirement by far will be a working environment that's mostly, if not entirely, in office.

I'm 27 for reference, but I've felt this way ever since the start of my career.

Isn't the pandemic the issue here though?

Was a me problem as well, I joined a local coworking space, started grad school, and joined a local community focused CrossFit.

I used to love the office, but I never see anyone there. Once is started focusing on local community activities things got better. I’d suggest adjusting your hours such that 5-8 pm are free for social activities. I usually start work at 10, break for dinner, and then do an hour or two before bed.

100%, I'm sure there is far more than two of you. As mentioned I had the problem at the start of the pandemic and had to reflect on why work was the majority of my social life, and I think that reflection led me to a better place.

That turn of phrase was to meant to mean it's your problem to find a solution too, I should not have to change my behavior to accommodate you wishing for a bustling office. It was not meant to imply that you are alone in feeling that way and I apologize if it was taken that way. Anyone having a hard time with remote is in good company.

Again if they are available in your area I'd recommend checking out co-working spaces. They are great ways to work around others who feel the same as you, and, as a bonus won't come and go with the job. Part of the reason I feel so strongly that your core socialization shouldn't be work is because so many of those connections, even the ones you thought were close, will disappear with the job.

At least three you can count me in as well

It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work, when most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university

It’s funny how people find it necessary to participate in in-group/out-group dynamics/politics at work, long past high school.

What if one could get paid for doing a job without any of that by skipping “socialize at work” altogether?

That works fine until your workplace is 3 people or more. Human nature can’t be wished away.

There's a thing called CC on your email client. It certainly lets you add more than 3 people.

I don’t see people finding the fact infuriating. People are upset because they feel like people are asking them to come in to the office because someone else wants to socialise.

Enforced socialisation doesn’t seem reasonable any more than denying that some people like to socialise at work. Two sets of people, two different needs.

I don't agree with the first sentence but it's just the feeling I have when reading some posts

I agree with the rest though, now that people had a taste of WFH, you can't force them to come to office just for the sake of socialization. My point was to acknowledge the issue that some people used to see work as a place to socialize just like high-school or university, and this way of socializing has been suddenly taken away from them with WFH, and there is nothing weird in that

> It's funny how people (in this thread and in general when the topic comes) find infuriating the idea of making friends or just socialize at work

I have yet to see someone find this idea "infuriating". What people find infuriating is people who want to drag everyone else back to the office so they can pretend we are friends.

> most friendships starts because some people happen to spend 8h/day at the same school/university.

"Most" feels very strong here. I have exactly 2 friends I am still in touch with from high school, unless you count social media connections. None from college, but admittedly, that was a pretty isolating time in my life due to the combined demands of work and school. Anecdata, but looking at my friend group, I'd say this is pretty representative. Which is a perfect example of why I advocate strongly for finding friends outside work. Turns out "we were forced into the same building" just isn't the basis for a lasting relationship people hope it is, and these often dry up when the constraint is removed.

I did find it annoying. The most annoying thing is I seen people doing then being treated as some kind of hard worker - but they were not. They did not produced more or anything. They just spent s lot of time socializing. And if you want to compete, you then have to stay late and move your socialization to work too.

Which has obvious impact on spouse kids and genuine friendships outside of work.

I would not mind it, if people socializing in work would not pretended their socialization is work.

I can second the GP’s testimony, even though I’m not new to my city / have a decent social life outside work.

The only thing that fixed up was moving to a company that was mostly in-office, with a few people hybrid/remote. Being able to interact in person with people working on the same project as me was rejuvenating, and that might be understating it.

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