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Comment by moffkalast | Hacker News Reader

The problem with that is the part where you need to get to and from the train station to your actual destination, which could be on the very other side of town. It can be solved with shuttles or taxis, but that adds even more complexity and annoyance than just driving directly, especially with luggage.

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Bike sharing services are great in those situations. You don't even need to carry your bike in the train. There is also public transit like trams and buses.

Gentle reminder that a significant portion of society is not able to carry out trips on bikes due to infirmity, disability, or needing to convey someone who cannot bike (e.g. small children).

I agree, but in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries...

For my family it's not even about the physical aspect, but about time. I don't want to waste my free time going to and from places in 2x/3x the time it takes by car.

> in a short time someone will reply here to tell you how they brought their kids to kindergarten in subzero temperatures with a bike, or how they bike half an hour in rain to buy groceries...

Fully expecting that comment, and I look forward to that person describing how they take an elderly parent to the doctor on a bike…

CARGO BIKE /s

You’re being sarcastic, but I’ve been there and done that. For $reasons. Under other circumstances, the answer would be “take a cab.”

„Take a cab“ is always an option. But at some point, if using it frequently enough, it becomes cheaper and more convenient to just own the damn thing.

If you take into account the current costs for cars, you can do a lot of kilometer per cab every month. I‘ve done the math for me - I could take the cab around 20-30 times a month for an average distance, for the costs associated with a VW Golf size car.

There are also options that cover the middle ground: Mixed mode (cab, train, cab) or car sharing. Certainly not available for all of us, but just as certainly available to many of us.

The primary issue is that the math only works out if you don’t buy/own a car, otherwise you‘ll have the majority of the costs of car ownership anyways. On a pure mile by mile replacement, the math doesn‘t work out.

If you MUST lease a brand new car and replace it every few years - probably. But driving a slightly older car is perfectly fine.

There're a lot of other variables. Family/life situation, hobbies, health situation, visual (fuck video ads on public transit) and audio noise tolerance...

People upthread ran the numbers and arrived at 600 USD/month for a used car. Seems high to me, but I don't know how the math works out in the US. For Germany, this is a pretty good modeling of the costs https://financer.com/de/blog/was-kostet-ein-auto-im-monat/ and it still arrives at 240 EUR/month for a used car. That's maybe not 20 cab rides, but still a significant number.

Obviously, the math I did for me works out for me. It likely will look different for you. However, I never pretended that the math works out for everyone - it doesn't. But it would work out for a lot of people if they were honest.

I've no idea for US either, but 600 USD/mo looks weird. For me here in Lithuania it was cheaper than that even while I was paying off my car. Now driving a paid-off-but-well-maintained car is more like €150/month for ~ 1k km a month with occasional maintenance, insurance and rare downtown parking. Obviously it is higher than that when including previous lease payments, but historical price is going down every month. So it could be pretty close to €240 after all, but buying a new car and then keeping it is not exactly a „used car“ budget...

„If they were honest“ is a bad argument to be honest. If everybody would change their preferences, they may have similar math to yours :)

By "were honest" I mostly mean "honest with themselves". There are a lot of costs that are easy to forget or ignore. The cost of parking in the city. The occasional repair. Having to tow your car, because it broke. Deprecation of a valuable asset. Very few people take stock of what they actually spend on their car, because it's hard and it's constantly shifting. Some costs are annually and (mostly) independent of your annual mileage - insurance and tax, for example. Others are constant and directly associated with your mileage - fuel. Yet, others again are directly associated but come in lumps - maintenance, tires, ... Deprecation is fuzzy and partially outside of any factor you can control, etc.

That feels like a strawman because most people do knowledge those costs. But they are negligible in the long run. €300 for a tire set over 5 years (but probably longer) literally €5/month. Occasional oil change works out to similar costs.

Of course, someone may run 20" wheels and then prices skyrocket. But then it’a no longer pure transit costs and more like an expensive hobby.

That’s perfect case for a taxi. However I love cars and just playing devil’s advocate here.

The cost of a taxi ride is not affordable if you need to make that type of trip often. Paying $40 for a ride once or twice a year is okay, but if you need to make a weekly trip to the doctor, plus get groceries and go to church on Sunday - a brand new car is now cheaper (a brand new car is very expensive, most people drive older used cars that are a lot cheaper)

The 'elderly parent to the doctor' case is still an argument for bike infrastructure. The more people choose to travel by bike instead of by car, the more space is available on the roads for those that need motor vehicles.

Don't be silly. The elderly parent with bad reflexes and even worse eyesight will drive themselves to the doctor in their equally decrepit car. That's what really happens when you reinforce the belief that cars are a necessity because bikes are some extreme hardship.

You’re joking but I once took an elderly man from the front entrance of his building to the parking lot in my cab because he couldn’t walk that far with his walker (which wasn’t all that far from the back door) and had to help him get behind the wheel to drive off.

Needless to say I waited a bit for him to clear the neighborhood before driving off.

Oh I'm very much NOT joking! I was stopped at a red light on my bike when I was rear ended by an 83yo. He couldn't judge how far his car was from my bike. He was super angry that I insisted he had to stick around to exchange information because he was going to be late for a doctor's appointment in Brookline. Thankfully it was low speed (he was stopping, he just didn't know where to stop) so all he did was knock me forwards.

83 must be the magic year…

Had one back into me at a traffic light, with me honking, and then put it into drive and take off when the light changed. Had to have the cops drag him out of a medical building to get a report and his story went from “no accident” (at the scene) to me rear ending him (on the witness stand contesting his ticket), luckily I was hauling around a passenger who confirmed my side of the story.

Still don’t have a clue why he thought it was a good idea to put it into reverse and barely creep backward at a red light with cars all around him.

A significant portion of society is also not able to drive for similar reasons, but they mostly go ignored in our car-centric society. Nobody's saying that we should completely eliminate the ability to drive, certainly some people will need to, but we need to also provide viable options for those who can't.

Additionally, bike infrastructure works great for mobility scooters too: https://youtu.be/xSGx3HSjKDo

This exactly. Different people have different needs and abilities, and we all get better options if more options become available. This is why investing in more bike infrastructure is ultimately good for everybody, even for the people who absolutely need a car; more people in public transit or on bikes means less cars on the load, less stress on infrastructure, less traffic jams, etc.

If you need to convey kids then you buy a bike that conveys kids easily. Copenhagen is full of these sort of box bikes[1] (well, trikes I guess) that at their larger side will happily fit three to four small children.

[1] https://christianiabikesamerica.com/collections/all-models

Taking cars off the roads means more space for the people who do need the roads. Few people are saying get rid of cars entirely, they have important uses. The roads already exist, tearing them out would be stupid. But we shouldn’t design our cities around them and require everyone have one. This has advantages for those who need to drive, reducing traffic.

Those people can still ride mobility scooters, e-bikes, small electric vehicles (like golf carts) but often can't drive. Car centric world means exclusion for those groups.

I didn't see many bikes in Amsterdam capable of conveying luggage.

How frequently do people need to carry luggage? The space afforded by a backpack or panniers on a regular bike suffices for most people most of the time.

We can all conjure circumstances when it is difficult or inconvenient to use public transit, but deep down we all know most people most of the time are driving their cars alone with minimal cargo and the reason they are driving is because our towns are designed to make it as convenient as possible.

It is hard to get groceries for a family into panniers. I did it while I was single, but now that there is a family to feed things don't fit. Even if you go shopping daily, a lot of things don't fit at all.

I've used my bike trailer for groceries. You have to be careful that you don't buy more than fits, but it works.

There's plenty of 'bakfietsen' in Amsterdam.

People carry entire families on their bikes in Amsterdam. There's been a massive boom in cargo bikes of every sort. But even regular bikes often have a small crate.

Those cities have extensive networks of local rail, subway, trams, and buses. So "the other side of town" is easily reachable.

And you again need to figure out and get whatever local card or ticket or app they decided to use to pay for all that, because there is zero standardization, which adds even more financial overhead assuming you're only visiting once, plus figuring out the timetable and route plan so you don't end up on the completely opposite end. Lots of "Oh wait, you were supposed to take the #15 bus, but this is a #15B which doesn't go to your station because fuck you" moments.

Remember, this mess is trying to directly compete with just looking at a satnav and driving where it says with no extra charge, lost time, or mental effort.

Transit agencies should come up with a reciprocity plan. You don't live here, but you have have a monthly pass for the city you live in so I'll let you ride my system for a week - or if system prices are too different pro-rate your time so you get a great discount.

Note that a large part of the above is I think transit agencies should try to get as many people as possible on unlimited ride family passes. Anyone with such a pass must find transit useful enough to use often anyway, and the pass means they don't worry about making one additional trip they just go.

Large cities don’t usually have one unlimited monthly plan, you pay for your specific route or zone(s).

I'm fine with zones, though I think cites get them wrong. The lowest cost zone should include your house, no matter where you live, with additional zones for getting farther away. When traveling your hotel should be how your zone is defined (or where ever you stay).

But you should always strive to have everyone on an unlimited rides pass for their home zone. Anything else encourages getting a car for trips that could go either way and that in turn justifies a car for everything.

> because there is zero standardization For the Netherlands, you could not be more wrong. By law, all public transport companies for Trains, Metro, Tram, Bus, Watertaxies are hooked into the exact same NFC payment platform, the OV-chipkaart. Recently, they rolled out debit/credit card payments on these readers nation-wide.

Additionally, all public transportation companies provide standardized service information including live updates (often required by the law). Any journey can be fully planned on 9292.nl.

Good thing the only country that exists is the Netherlands and nobody ever ventures outside of it.

I do hope there is an eventual push for an EU-wide NFC system for public transport, that would be pretty dope.

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