Silicon Valley newcomers are still dreaming big | Hacker News Reader

Silicon Valley newcomers are still dreaming big

nytimes.com

57 pointsjohnnyn32 comments

Sorry to be cynical here but I see that the myriad of new Tech companies do all pretty much the same thing and users don't stick to their product. However at the end of the day these companies do not survive and I don't even know if workers see that fact. For Business Investors it's a typical situation where it's "Make a lot of cash, fast, SELL". They all know that the company is not going to survive past the buzz, but they don't care because in the meantime they can make money out of it. People if you want to dream, do a product that is really useful, forget the "social", "new consumption" keywords that we hear everywhere and build a product that will last.

Also 70k in Silicon Valley is not great. Living there is very expensive. I know they have stocks but look at the fine prints to resell them! Remember that a salary is relative to an area.

But anyway keep on dreaming, it is not forbidden.

</cynicalguyrant>

>Also 70k in Silicon Valley is not great. Living there is very expensive.

Wow, I had no idea. Here in Canada, 70K in Canada is definitely above average for entry or junior level developers. I think high 50k to low 60k is around the average here for developers right out of college.

How much is the average salary for established developers and entry-level developers around the Valley and the Bay area?

$85-100k seems to be about entry level for software engineers with a BS in CS from a good school at established companies in this area. My impression is that the Google/Facebook talent war has significantly increased this over the past few years.

I'm guessing these guys have several years internship experience and a load of side projects coming out of school? I know a few guys who came out with just a degree and 0 exp starting at around the mid $50k range.

I've just moved recently to Palo Alto, but I've heard that compared to several years ago the rent, utilities and general cost of living has gone up significantly too. A coworker of mine has a studio in the Richmond District,SF for $800/month, but now that same studio would probably rent for $1300/month. That's an almost $10'000 increase in pre-tax income needed to cover the difference.

You know, I'm tired of hearing this. I live very comfortably and my total expenses are <$1500/mo. This might get a small bump if I go out more than usual in a particular month. But really, I wonder what everyone else does so differently.

Agreed, but after Engineering studies you want to make "big money" if you go to SV. And if you read the article it is worded as such:

> "Her more than $70,000 salary, stock options and personal investment portfolio, though, go a long way to alleviate any parental concerns. " Which seems to be so much money that her parents forget their worries. What I am saying is, in term of SV salary that's not much to have 70k. Actually 75k in S.V. ~ 55k in Atlanta for example.

Personally I have a very good salary (> 70k) and I have way to much money per month. I don't buy gadgets or anything so yeah I am way below $1500 / mo.

Agreed. I rent a room in a house and my rent is about $600/mo. including utilities. (this isn't hard to find, unless you want to live in a highly desirable area of SF. I personally have found I can get all the benefits without living in the epicenter)

Insurance, phone, and gas run about 200 dollars a month. The rest consists of food and drink, by far my worst habit and biggest expense, varies between 700 and 800 per month. This puts me anywhere between 1500 and 1800 in expenses per month. I suppose if I were to amortize unforeseen costs (the occasional 300 dollar repair on the car, occasional shopping for clothes) those figures would creep a bit higher.

It all depends on where you're coming from I guess, I grew up with frugal parents who placed value on family and good times around the dinner table as opposed to expensive clothes and cars.

Rent alone (in SF) will _easily_ put you above 1500/month

That's not really accurate. If one insists on living in a new building with amenities, or in an ultra-yuppified neighborhood (e.g. Marina), then yes, the sky is the limit on rental costs and there are no bargains. If you're more flexible, then you can go a lot lower. My last 1BR (in SOMA, on a rough block but the apartment was perfectly nice) was $1100, and another 125 for parking. I have friends who have 1BR and studios in Tendernob, Panhandle, and other decent but less-popular places for around the same cost. Mainly it just takes patience and persistence to nab the deals when they become available.

That said, living in SF on a total budget of 1500/month is going to take some compromises.

"My last 1BR (in SOMA, on a rough block but the apartment was perfectly nice) was $1100, and another 125 for parking."

I haven't seen a rent like that in SOMA since 2008...at least, not anywhere that I'd consider safe. There are some bedbug-ridden firetraps in down near 6th, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to sacrifice for cheap rent. And I'm saying this as a guy who lives in a not-so-great part of SOMA....

Rents have gone up. Decent 1BR rents land at around $2,000, even in inconvenient/less-than-great locations. There seems to be this general delusion/denial trend regarding San Francisco rents, when they're easily verified by going to craigslist. It's an expensive place to live, and that's the greater point -- $70,000 isn't making anyone wealthy in San Francisco. It's enough to have a comfortable single-20-something lifestyle, and maybe put a bit of cash away for retirement if you live frugally.

$600-$1200+/mo for 1 room with room mates in SV $1200-$1900+/mo for 1 bedroom apt in SV $1900-$4000+/mo for a house with 2+ rooms in SV

... from my recent housing searches on CL

More people should look at Pacifica. 15 mins from city, I live literally next to the beach, have a pretty good gym, sauna, pool in complex, and my rent is obscenely low for what I've got. Plus free and easy parking and lots of stuff walking distance. But the fog... Not much worse than sf fog though...

I pay $1,000/month for a room in a 2BR apartment in the middle of Hayes Valley in SF. If you live in a less central neighborhood like the Richmond, Sunset, Glen Park, Bernal Heights, etc. it will be much lower.

Out of curiosity, would you be able to break down your monthly expenses(rent, food, entertainment, etc...)? Always looking for ideas on trimming my budget and understanding how low it can go in the various categories.

I did somewhat above in the same thread. Let me know if you want more details and I'll elaborate.

Here are some of my friend's salaries. 1-4 graduated from the same school as me in TX in the same year, not sure where 5 went to school:

(1) $120k/yr - tester - Seattle area - large company - interned 1 yr at same large company as tester.

(2) $75k/yr - software dev - bay area - small company - interned 4 yr at different small company as software dev.

(3) $65k/yr - Java dev - Dallas, TX - medium size company - no internship experience, but competent programmer

(4) $60k/yr - software dev - Dallas, TX - large company - never wrote a line of code through University

(5) $110k/yr - M$ sharepoint maintainer - Dallas, TX - large company - n/a

"Bansi Shah, 23, picked up her undergraduate diploma, then took a job at Lattice Engines, a small San Mateo startup, where she makes “near the top” of the company’s $80,000 to $130,000 range for an entry level product manager, plus equity"

Is this the norm in silicon valley, entry level positions making close to 130k plus equity? If this is the exception great!, but where does someone go from there? If right out of school your making 130k, does that mean your going to make 200k after 6 years?

Pretty sure that's the exception. She actually has a Masters degree as well, so I think that line is pretty misleading. $130k is still high for an entry level product manager though I think.

Lattice Engines doesn't make engines. It's just another fluffy dotcom.

"They go hiking rather than clubbing, look with a hint of impatience at their less social-media-savvy elders, are picky about their sushi and unhappy with iceberg lettuce."

There is nothing necessarily wrong or untrue about this statement, but it's definitely an unflattering generalization that made me chuckle during my lunchtime HN binge.

This: “My guess is that at some point the music stops and we find out that there’s not just one less chair but hundreds of thousands of less chairs, and we’ll have thousands of kids who haven’t learned anything because they’re all expecting to learn from each other,” he said."

A lot of people are going to come out of this boom with less useful experience than is commonly assumed.

>>Still emerging from their student years, most have yet to translate their earnings into material tokens of success.

This sentence rubbed me the wrong way. I don't think it's a coincidence that the same people who command these salaries are the same people that would be smart enough to drive a Ford or Honda and not splurge on a 5-series.

Now see, your comment rubs me the wrong way. After I got my first job, I splurged on a used 911 Turbo. It got terrible mileage, but made me smile every single day I drove it (which wasn't everyday).

Attitudes to money are varied, and the accumulation of wealth, like squirrel nuts, is not everyone's goal.

I agree, you make a valid point. But the reason her comment rubbed me the wrong way is precisely because it seemed to gloss over the point you just made - a great one at that- "attitudes to money are varied, and the accumulation of wealth ... is not everyone's goal."

Hey you can buy a used 5 series/boxster/etc in good condition for about the price of a new subcompact. It's not that unwise.

This time it's different..

changing the world instead of hitting the jackpot? Sounds like what business majors are pretending too nowadays...

The salary listings in http://angel.co/jobs are a decent way to get an impression of the amount of money people are paid in the business. It's quite high by my standards.

130k for an entry-level product manager. Whew.

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