Comment by yawnxyz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by yawnxyz | Hacker News Reader

> It is common for Amish areas to avoid dependence on the outside world, and thus the communities that do use electricity will often rely heavily on solar panels and other local forms of electricity generation.

> That aligns well with electric bicycles, which have small batteries that are easily charged by equally small solar panels.

> Mullet’s bike shop is entirely off-grid, with two dozen solar panels on the roof to power the store’s electricity. Public e-bike charging stations are also becoming more popular in Amish country, which are simple to create with a series of outdoor weather-protected 120VAC outlets.

It's really cool that what Amish actually care about is avoiding over-dependence. To me it kind of feels like all the people here who self-host their emails etc. — it's not because they shun the technology itself, they just want to be in control of their entire stack.

In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?

I think it's true that the Amish deserve respect as craftspeople, but it's still important to maintain some critical distance. They are still deeply religious folks, with orthodox views who cede a lot of control to their local pastor. I would not know much about it other than that they are very heterogeneous, but it appears that there is a steady stream of folks who want out, and those who exit get shunned by their previous communities.

I thought when the amish reached adolescence they were given the ability to leave the community and investigate the world on their own before deciding if they wanted to join the church:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

Not every Amish community.

Sadly, depending on the pastor, not everyone can go, especially introverts who do not have much friends or relations within the community.

But some communities are very welcoming and open minded, and everyone can leave or join (temporarily at first). It really depends, I only know one community, influenced by the 70s pacifists movements, i really like them, but I know they aren't the majority.

What I've heard is that the decision to leave is, however, final. Your friends and even family will shun you for even small deviation from the norm. There are no backsies.

The trial period (rumspringa) is not final. This is a standard convention. If you then choose to leave, yes you will be shunned.

This ex-Amish TikToker is incredible: https://www.tiktok.com/@yodertoter40?_t=8abRVLmk1ra&_r=1

Some of his content is benign, but he also discusses the epidemic of child abuse (including sexual), rampant female illiteracy, and the general cruelty of Amish culture.

Isolated communities always end up that way. Whether it is the Amish or some 1970s hippie cult.

And Pitcairn island. This is one reason why I'm sceptical to Mars colonies. Far away from regular society, and it's reasonable to expect that people who are seeking out such remote living maybe doesn't function perfectly in all social situations. I think it has the capacity to end poorly, not just for technical reasons but for human reasons as well.

I mean the same held for the American colonies. And I think it's still noticeable that Americans are different.

Adults who choose this absolutely deserve respect, but religion and tradition should never be an excuse to limit your childrens' opportunities. Everything we do, from home to central government should be to enable not curtail.

Rumspringa (where applicable) does some of this, but we all know what Rumspringa is actually for. It's a hormone-fuelled binge on life, not a focus on how the rest of the world works, day to day.

> In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?

Yes. You might enjoy this article [1].

[1] https://kk.org/thetechnium/amish-hackers-a/

I did enjoy that article! Thanks for sharing

There are different communities with different rules. See how one uses power tools: https://youtu.be/m0qenuKmong

The Mennonites that have done work for me can use a battery powered tool, an air powered tool attached to a compressor on a generator, an air powered tool on my compressor (but not theirs) plugged into my house (but not by them), a wired tool plugged into a generator, but not a wired tool plugged into my house.

I just smile and nod.

Reminds me of the various 'loopholes' Orthodox Jews use to get around their rules/laws regarding the Sabbath.

I enjoyed the self-flushing toilets and hiring non-Jewish people on the sabbath, since they’re going to hell anyways. ;-)

Judaism does not have a notion of going to hell the way modern day Christianity espouses

I think that's stretching the term. Self reliance is part of a lot of ways of living but central to 'hacking' is transgression of boundaries and repurposing of tools in unorthodox ways and that's very far from the Amish spirit. Hacking inherently has a tolerance for risk and experiment that conservative adoption of tech tries to avoid.

> In some ways, doesn't this put the Amish squarely in the "hacker" demographic?

I would say: "No."

Hacking is about making objects (very often computers in a general sense, but hacking is not restricted to it) do things that the creator did not intend them to do, and is often against the intention of the creator of the object.

In this sense, a central component of what makes hacking what it is, is subverting things.

Amish culture is, on the other hand, about obeying the rules of their culture. So, what the Amish do is self-sufficiency, but at most very rarely hacking.

Do you control the photovoltaic cells production or the lithium cells supply chain?

Probably not…

No more than you control iron ore mines or steel mills. The Amish aren’t targeting the Stone Age.

There is a Mitch Hedberg joke about escalators that applies here.

Almost all e-bikes can, at the very least, be used without battery power. Some can even be essentially "de-electrified" if need be. The fail state for an e-bike is "slightly less convenient."

Good point. I stand corrected.

Yea, though some of them are insanely heavy that without the assist, it’s quite a workout!

Generally the mid-motor models have some fairly serious friction when unpowered. Hub motors usually have way less friction, sometimes to the point of basically being a regular bicycle if you don't put the battery in.

As far as I can tell, the difference is in consumption/durability. They don't buy cars because they'd be hooked on the gas supply chain. But if you buy a solar panel, it's yours.

And the ship has sailed on lithium batteries -- cell phones are permitted in limited contexts.

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