What value is the property deed? The house has the value - what's the property deed worth? If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?
When you ask a question like that I can't help but asking back: How would you design any system that has "literally 0 downtime" and why do you think it is only possible to achive it using a blockchain?
As for the second part: proving some digital data is originating from someone is what we have been doing using cryptographic signatures for quite a while now. How to do so in a stable fashion that resists changes to the original data e.g. editing, cropping, color-manipulation, pitch shifting, etc is the challenge. This is called fingerprinting.
To proove ownership of a material you just need a list of fingerprints and a reference to the entity that owns the rights. How to do reliable databases is a problem that we sort of know how to deal with in 2023.
The question is, why would you need a blockchain for that problem? The hard part is not trusting the entity that stores the data, the hard part is trusting the data that is entered into that database. And for this kind of problem the best construction we have found so far is dedicating some institution to that purpose and have copyright-holders proove their ownership of their data to that institution. But if you have an institution that you already need to trust with data entry you can also trust them with data storage or not?
Not sure how a blockchain helps when some guy claims the song I have written on another blockchain. In the end it will be governments who will have to recognize my ownership so I can sue and by that point you can safe yourself the trouble of using a blockchain in the first place.
Blockchains are great for proving ownership because you can provide a signature for verification and then that can be cross-referenced to see if that same signature also owns the on-chain data.
There is no getting around the fact that the government chooses the system of record and property owners have to abide that choice. If the government though chose to use a blockchain as the system of record (for all the benefits I listed previously), then you don't need to worry about other blockchains, because that's not the one the government cares about.
Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain!
>Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof.
> Oh, the real hard problems are creating the standardised representation of a property deed and getting everyone to use it. Something not at all addressed by use of blockchain!
And Oracle databases addressed this? Standardizing property deeds is more of an application level concern not core blockchain infra.
>Cryptographically prove ownership of a property literally no one is asking for this except the sellers of cryptographic proof.
A good UI/UX would make this a push button capability from a wallet. No need for the general public to understand the technology powering push button verification. :)
You claimed it as a benefit! There's no reason that NFTs for property deeds would: Be standardised, or be on the same chain. That's more an application level concern, so please take that point back.
>Just because you host on AWS doesn't mean you get 0 downtime.
You get as near to 0 downtime as anyone needs for transacting property.
Also, still no one is asking for cryptographic proof of property ownership, even if you make it a single button push. No one needs it now, what does it add? Why is what we have now in need of cryptographic verification? Crypto boosters want it because they're selling it, directly or indirectly. You have not answered this question.
There's different standard levels right? I'm talking about when you build a property deed NFT you'd have to adhere to the on-chain standard for how NFTs are created on that particular blockchain. Then once those NFTs existed other people could integrate them. If you want the property deeds to have a set of standard specifications of how they deal with particular situations that might arise through inheritance, multiple parties, lost keys, etc. then that would be an application level specification.
> Also, still no one is asking for cryptographic proof of property ownership, even if you make it a single button push. No one needs it now, what does it add? Why is what we have now in need of cryptographic verification? Crypto boosters want it because they're selling it, directly or indirectly. You have not answered this question.
I'm asking for it and I'm sure others would like to have it to. :) Having cryptographic verification provides an ability to quickly prove ownership from an application and then that verification could unlock certain home owner benefits (e.g. HELOCs)
Why would you want to make house deeds easy to hack?
>There's different standard levels right? I'm talking about when you build a property deed NFT you'd have to adhere to the on-chain standard for how NFTs are created on that particular blockchain.
Okay, why bother with that particular blockchain standard then, and not the hypothetical FOSS software for hosting a property deed database? Because then you have the same benefits, but also don't need the blockchain?
It helps facilitate more automated approval b/c if you were to complete an application with your wallet then the system could check for the presence of the NFT to indicate ownership.
> How does cryptography proof that you own it?
The presence of the NFT in your wallet.
> Because you know a private key attached to a wallet address with the NFT in it?
Yes
> Okay, and how does that NFT relate to actually owning something?
If the government decides to use a blockchain as its system of record for property deeds, then the NFTs on that blockchain would be just as legitimate as paper property deeds. The NFTs hold the hash of any off-chain data whose validity could be verified.
> What if you get hacked, does the hacker now own it?
Perhaps in a poor implementation. I would expect clawbacks to be implemented for property deed NFTs.
> And if the hacker takes out the line of credit, fail to pay, does the defi protocol they borrowed from now own your house?
Hopefully that user is using a hardware wallet and again clawbacks are implemented, so that doesn't happen. If it did, then you'd probably seek resolution through the courts as needed.
> Why would you want to make house deeds easy to hack?
It's very hard to steal NFTs from a hardware wallet with clawback support. Good luck!
> Okay, why bother with that particular blockchain standard then, and not the hypothetical FOSS software for hosting a property deed database? Because then you have the same benefits, but also don't need the blockchain?
Because a FOSS property deed database could be censored and cannot be independently verified outside of the governing body easily. I would expect the uptime to be slower. It would also become a central point of failure for all property deeds and would need to protect against DDoS attacks.
Does this exist? What would it look like? Can you force a wallet to release an NFT? Or is it just governmental - centralized! - approved reminting of an NFT?
Also your security model is "I hope users use a hardware wallet" - not a great track record of this! Even among professional cryptocurrency developers!
>Because a FOSS property deed database could be censored and cannot be independently verified outside of the governing body easily. I would expect the uptime to be slower. It would also become a central point of failure for all property deeds This is the state of play today and it's... fine? Like I know many, many, many people buying houses and the hard part is not the record keeping of the deeds. That wouldn't even make a top 10 problem. And I know several people who've remortgaged or taken out credit against their house. They managed! Generally, taking out a big loan doesn't need to be fast - you don't do it that often.
Not exactly crying out for this solution, is it?
So, in summary, this use case isn't a high priority for nearly anyone (HELOCs already exist and can be accessed, and in any case, who needs them to be much faster? how often do they take out credit against their house?) and requires either centralized authority OR a future improvement to a blockchain (clawback!) and still requires the courts to looks at analog paper deeds (otherwise, how could seek resolution through the courts) in any case.
Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages.
Cryptographic signatures paired with identity information makes all transactions easily verifiable for tax collection purposes. There are purposes such as proving ownership of a record anytime someone needs to that would be convenient if the records are accessible 24/7.
> Ransomware or other attacks are always going to be a risk, and the more municipalities that use a single system, the bigger a target it becomes, so smaller but properly secured and backed up systems have advantages.
If the past is any indication, local governments and small businesses have had a heck of time securing their IT systems. I would much prefer a hardened blockchain system to secure my property ownership record, than the current situation.
I don’t think they even care who pays the tax as long as it gets paid. They aren’t going to not take your money if they can’t verify you’re the legal owner.
> I would much prefer a hardened blockchain system to secure my property ownership record, than the current situation.
The current system isn’t even digital. There’s some sort of master book or something that records every title transaction since there’s been a legal claim on the property. I’m pretty sure the one for my house is archived with the title insurance company, probably something I should know.
Its value is that it is proof of ownership certified by whichever county officer has the job to do these things.
> The house has the value - what's the property deed worth?
Literally nothing since anyone can show up at the county office and get a copy. They don’t even ask for ID because it’s a public record.
> If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?
No, the property deed is an official record of the property owner.
With the deed you can prove you own the property but even that isn’t ironclad which is the whole reason there’s a title insurance industry. Which, and I’ll give you this one, could be the only valid reason for “blockchain” in this whole argument but would require having every historic property transaction already on chain or you’d just be where we are today.
That's a great question.
Riddle me this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564
Your question was, quote, "If you have the property deed, are you the house owner?"
I gave you an example of a property deed, and issues that could arise around that property deed. Now, how exactly will blockchain help in the cases I described?
It's not. NFTs are non-enforceable.
> Public blockchains can help expose manipulations of property records
No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
They are as non-enforceable as property deeds. (i.e. property deed enforce-ability relies on the government too)
> No they can't. I literally provided you with examples.
They absolutely can. If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain you will see exactly when and by whom it was modified. This could be provided as evidence in court.
Translation: government enforces property deeds. They are enfoceable.
NFTs are not
> If someone modifies the NFT on the blockchain
The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided.
Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain.
How did property deeds come into existence? Was there a time before property deeds? The point is technology evolves and blockchains offer an alternative to record keeping that is an improvement over existing systems. If governments adopt them for tracking property ownership, then they will be just as enforceable as property deeds.
> The question isn't about modifying the NFT is it. Go and re-read the cases I provided.
The point is the on-chain historical record of transactions can be provided as evidence to a court. A blockchain will not prevent corruption and bribery from arising, but it does represent an unalterable record of transactions. Ultimately courts are the enforceability layer of the government, but that does not make blockchains useless for the purposes of property record keeping.
> Edit: What amazes me about all the cryptobros is their inability to look beyond the simplest of the most simplest of the most trivial of cases. Probably because of their childlike belief in the magic of blockchain.
This seems like your inner bias coming out. There is certainly no shortage of grift in the crypto space. Nevertheless, the technology is real and there are people with PhDs in CompSci and vast amounts of distributed network experience working in the space. I'd invite you to try and look at the technology objectively, because there are some really exciting and cool things happening in the space.
You've yet to show it's an improvement.
> Ultimately courts are the enforceability layer of the government, but that does not make blockchains useless for the purposes of property record keeping.
Of course it does. For example, immutability of the record makes everything but the most trivial of cases very complex or impossible:
- every single case in the linked comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27212564 is made worse by the blockchain
- death, incapacitation, loss of access to wallet/private keys and many more: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27217681
> This seems like your inner bias coming out.
No. This is the result of many, many such discussions where crypto absolutists fail to imagine any but the most trivial of cases (and even those work only barely, with a bunch of constraints and reliance on existing centralised mechanisms). And for anything outside of those trivial examples they invent more and more bizarre constructs that make the whole thing collapse under its own weight.
> I'd invite you to try and look at the technology objectively,
I have
> because there are some really exciting and cool things happening in the space.
We've heard this magic mantra being repeated ad nauseam for the past 10 years. There's still nothing exciting or cool coming out of this cesspool.