Eventually, almost everyone figures out for themselves what makes them happy and what doesn't. Moreover, there are plenty of unmarried people who aren't against marriage, who indeed want to get married, but their life circumstances haven't resulted in marriage, for various reasons. They don't need preachers.
Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is out of consideration for all the single parents, and you therefore decided to adopt. You figure it out two years later. Years have gone by, and dating is now very difficult. Is this somehow progressive!?
Marriage is hardly a secret.
> Suppose nobody told you how difficult single parenthood is
I think you can guess. Anyway, that's not a secret either.
People are aware of these things. The options are not sermonization or censorship; that's a false dichotomy.
Being vaguely aware that “single-parenthood is harder than two-parenthood” does not count as informed.
We're openly discussing it right now.
I'm truly baffled by the idea that it isn't openly discussed.
It's not though. There's no evidence of that.
In fact, the very claim "no one wants to impinge involuntarily single-parenthood households" is itself an ironic admission that the difficulties of single-parent households are obvious to everyone.
Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something.
EG: if I advocate marriage (and I do!) it's out of some small ounce of altruism. Economically I don't give half a shit about you and your life circumstances, I never met you and you have no impact on me.
But - if I have a chance of sharing something wholeheartedly that has made my life better and I believe will make most people's lives better - I share that out of some pleasure of perhaps helping someone.
That's what preaching is. When someone preaches to me, I may not listen but I appreciate what is driving them.
Alternatively, maybe you don't need any unsolicited advice and can make your own decisions.
However empirically I found that the more convinced one is that they don't need advice the more badly they actually need it.
Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not - I'd want to speak to a lot of old dudes who never married and those who did, and understand their experiences.
And I'd love to have heard from someone who loved single life like I did but found even deeper meaning in marriage.
Doesn't mean I would let them make the decision for me but I would want to know it. And if I was too dumb to ask those questions, I'd hope someone older and wiser would recognize that and help me
Empirically, I found the opposite. ;-)
> Objectively, if I was deciding on whether I want to be married or not
You decide that subjectively, not objectively. It's actually pretty simple: be single for a while, and see how it feels. If it sucks, then try not to be single. If it's great, then continue.
There's also the crucial matter of marriage being a mutual decision between two people, so one can't just decide to get married. I will offer some advice myself though FWIW: if you're not in love with someone, or they're not in love with you, then you probably shouldn't marry them.
Perhaps you are not a married dude... I found a huge difference between "not being single" and being married. The life long commitment backing the relationship adds a lot.
I wouldn't have expected that a priori. And I think maybe this isn't well understood.
Marriage isn't exactly a lifelong commitment anymore. Til divorce do we part.
In any case, as I discussed in my previous comment, the lifelong commitment can't be one-sided. You don't just make a lifelong commitment to a random person on the street. You have to meet the right person first. Any advice or preaching is irrelevant unless you happen to meet a potential spouse, in which case you may not even need advice, and things will just take their natural course.
To meet the right person, you need to BE the right person. Like, imagine you meet someone who wants to get married and have kids and you are unsure. They probably won't stick around to see if and when you are gonna figure it out for yourself.
Certainly, can work that way. Not optimal path.
> Otherwise you are either completely devoid of advice or you only get advised by someone who is selling you something.
Oh preachers are selling something.
If so, you are not following the conversation. We are using preachers to mean those who provide moral/life guidance from their own experience. You can fall that "advocates" or whatever.
How out of touch can we truly be here? Marriage and having kids are two of the things universally pushed. We need solutions to the root problems leading to these "lower stats of marriage".
Becoming that person who believes he's performing altruism by telling his friends to have kids is not beneficial to anybody, and will likely prevent your relationship with them from developing any deeper than mutual transactions. Everyone KNOWS. What they do not know is whether they'll have a job tomorrow to afford their kids, whether they can overcome their upbringing to provide a healthy environment to raise their kids, etc.
So please, enough with the preaching. It might ironically be better if we had more people selling real solutions to these problems.
The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not. Modern American society gives people this illusion of choice, and they’re paralyzed by it. But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table. Socializing the next generation of workers is probably the most you’re cut out to do in this world.
Also in many cases to make bad decisions.
What if all your friends order the deep dish?
> The fact is that most people think they’re special, but they’re not.
True. IMO your advice and social pressure is not special.
> But for maybe 80% of people, it’s not going to get much better than getting married, having kids, and working to put food on the table.
My point is that those 80% can likely figure that out for themselves.
My observation is that they can’t, and make a lot of mistakes trying.
I believe I had good parents, but I still did lots of mistakes, costly mistakes that I wish I did not make. I am determined to teach all I can to my future children, if any, so that they don't have to learn it all by themselves again.
I think it is only sensible that such teachings are spread society wide, for children who have no good parental figures.
That's how it works. That's totally natural. It's human nature. You can't live your kids' lives for them, can't make their decisions for them. And sometimes kids end up better than their parents, despite their parents.
Besides, we're not really talking about parents preaching to their kids, are we? Parents can say whatever they want to their kids in the privacy of their own homes. You seemed to be referring to public preaching.
I don't care what is natural. I care what results in better outcomes. I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice. In this particular circumstance learning by mistakes is exactly what you should not aspire to do, because it is so costly. One bad mistake can derail your entire life.
Teaching is not preaching. Facts are not values.
> I know I could have had better outcomes if I was given better advice.
This is what I dispute. You can give advice, but that doesn't mean anyone is going to take it. Especially not youths, who are omniscient, omnipotent, and immortal.
The approach my parents took to my upbringing - or lack thereof.
Today at 42, I feel I have wasted most of my life and have achieved nothing worthwhile.
Frankly, I don’t feel like living anymore. It just doesn’t seem worth it.